Possible kink in my process...
#1
Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:31 PM
#2
Posted 06 March 2014 - 09:01 PM
As you know I don't deal with a sparge so take what I say with a grain of…well... "no experience". But it is my understanding that you don't have to worry about sparge water pH if you are using DI water. (Someone set me straight if this is wrong.) So when you go 50/50 (tap/DI) on the water and 50/50 (mash/spagre volume) why not just do all DI water in the sparge and all filtered tap-water in the mash? It would require a larger acid addition to your mash to neutralize your alkalinity but would get you to the same place with zero acid needed in the sparge water.
ETA: Or just go all DI water for everything
Edited by ettels4, 06 March 2014 - 09:02 PM.
#3
Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:48 AM
#4
Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:57 AM
Well, I am trying to avoid buying so much distilled water, if there is a way around it. Your suggestion makes sense but I guess I just wonder about this issue... I generally don't like to 'treat' before I know how/what to treat but if I don't treat and that pH is high, is my beer slowly being ruined with tannins?As you know I don't deal with a sparge so take what I say with a grain of…well... "no experience". But it is my understanding that you don't have to worry about sparge water pH if you are using DI water. (Someone set me straight if this is wrong.) So when you go 50/50 (tap/DI) on the water and 50/50 (mash/spagre volume) why not just do all DI water in the sparge and all filtered tap-water in the mash? It would require a larger acid addition to your mash to neutralize your alkalinity but would get you to the same place with zero acid needed in the sparge water. ETA: Or just go all DI water for everything
This is what I was envisioning... a situation where making a pale beer just requires an acid addition to the sparge and I just know that from experience. I kegged a Blonde Ale yesterday where I used 50% distilled water and I see that I had the mash pH correct and the sparge pH only made it to 5.7 so I'm thinking that this batch was a good test and it should be okay. I am making another pale beer (a pilsner w/2278 and Hallertau & Spalt hops) tonight so I will probably get the sparge water together and just hit it with 1ml of lactic acid right from the start.Thanks gang.Ken, I have figured out for my system which grists will need a little acid in the sparge. I use 10% phosphoric and add .5-1.5 tsp depending on my SRM. I've done it so many times that I pretty much add a little acid and I know what the resulting pH will be. Typically ~5.3-5.6.When I was learning my system, I would check pH then add acid and had some 6.0 pH sparges until I added acid. I never did have astringency issues from the brief period at this pH and I taste my beers very critically.
#5
Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:37 AM
don't sparge with really hot water and you should be good. i've never adjusted my sparge water. this is all assuming you are batch sparging. fly sparging has a different set of rules which I have never bothered to really think about.
#6
Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:39 AM
I have heard that temps higher than 180° (not positive on that number) can create tannin issues but also sparge pH. You probably never had that issue because your water is so soft. I only heat my sparge water to about 160° so that's not the issue. But I have had sparge pH reach 6.0 before so then the question becomes... how quickly would tannin extraction happen in the sparge? I think the answer is... don't find out. Acidify the sparge water first so it's not an issue.don't sparge with really hot water and you should be good. i've never adjusted my sparge water. this is all assuming you are batch sparging. fly sparging has a different set of rules which I have never bothered to really think about.
Edited by KenLenard, 07 March 2014 - 06:42 AM.
#7
Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:03 AM
I have heard that temps higher than 180° (not positive on that number) can create tannin issues but also sparge pH. You probably never had that issue because your water is so soft. I only heat my sparge water to about 160° so that's not the issue. But I have had sparge pH reach 6.0 before so then the question becomes... how quickly would tannin extraction happen in the sparge? I think the answer is... don't find out. Acidify the sparge water first so it's not an issue.
last I checked tannin extraction required 3 things (and by this I mean all 3 things):
1) high pH
2) high temperature
3) time
with batch sparging the contact time is pretty minimal. you can easily avoid high temperature (above 170F or whatever it is).
so even if your pH is a little high in the sparge you might still be A-OK.
#8
Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:33 AM
Hmm. I had this conversation with Denny but we didn't nail it down quite that tight. He mentioned that a sparge pH over 6.0 (whether batch or sparge) can cause problems and the temp was not mentioned. This may have been over on Northern Brewer but I would love for anyone who knows to pipe in here. If tannin-extraction indeed requires all three of those things to happen... that would be interesting. I have not heard that... up to this point.last I checked tannin extraction required 3 things (and by this I mean all 3 things): 1) high pH2) high temperature3) time with batch sparging the contact time is pretty minimal. you can easily avoid high temperature (above 170F or whatever it is). so even if your pH is a little high in the sparge you might still be A-OK.
#9
Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:27 AM
Hmm. I had this conversation with Denny but we didn't nail it down quite that tight. He mentioned that a sparge pH over 6.0 (whether batch or sparge) can cause problems and the temp was not mentioned. This may have been over on Northern Brewer but I would love for anyone who knows to pipe in here. If tannin-extraction indeed requires all three of those things to happen... that would be interesting. I have not heard that... up to this point.
I think i initially had this discussion with mtn. he seems pretty knowledgable so i went with it. you are correct though - with my soft water the grain has sufficient buffering capacity to not end up with a crazy pH in my batch sparge.
#10
Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:54 AM
#11
Posted 07 March 2014 - 09:23 AM
any idea how high the batch sparge pH was getting in all of those examples? also the approximate temp of the sparge + grain mixture?
Edited by TheGuv, 07 March 2014 - 09:23 AM.
#12
Posted 07 March 2014 - 09:45 AM
What does brun' water tell you to do to the sparge?
#13
Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:03 AM
#14
Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:05 AM
any idea how high the batch sparge pH was getting in all of those examples? also the approximate temp of the sparge + grain mixture?
On the blonde, my notes tell me that the pH of the sparge was 5.7. But... do I trust my meter? Is it possible that it changed over the course of 15 minutes while I recirc'd and ran it off? I didn't add any acid to the sparge on that batch because the pH came in at 5.7. Also, I have been in the habit of heating my sparge water to only 150-160° for the past year or more so the sparge temp should not have been excessive.
What does brun' water tell you to do to the sparge?
I didn't ask it.
Edited by KenLenard, 07 March 2014 - 10:06 AM.
#15
Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:07 AM
I'm thinking that I will do this on a pale lager later today. When my sparge water is sitting in the pot and still at room temp, I'll add some acid and check the pH.If I had Ken's water, I think I'd try acidifying my sparge water to pH 5.5 before heating it up, which would avoid some of the hassle of taking the pH. It would also probably improve your kettle pH. After a few times you should learn how much acid you need.
#16
Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:35 AM
If I had Ken's water, I think I'd try acidifying my sparge water to pH 5.5 before heating it up, which would avoid some of the hassle of taking the pH. It would also probably improve your kettle pH. After a few times you should learn how much acid you need.
I like this.
I didn't ask it.
If you use it correctly, I believe it should tell you the appropriate amount of acid to add to the sparge water (cold like Brauer said) for a given recipe. Kinda takes the guesswork out.
#17
Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:51 AM
I'm thinking that I will do this on a pale lager later today. When my sparge water is sitting in the pot and still at room temp, I'll add some acid and check the pH.
certainly kettle pH matters. if you need to adjust for that anyway acidifying the sparge a little bit to possibly help in both places wouldn't be bad.
#18
Posted 07 March 2014 - 12:17 PM
Yeah, I'm with you. I do try to shoot for a kettle pH in the mid 5s so if I just acidify the sparge water first, that should cut down on the chance of a sparge pH/tannin issue and might wipe out the need to even check the kettle pH.certainly kettle pH matters. if you need to adjust for that anyway acidifying the sparge a little bit to possibly help in both places wouldn't be bad.
I know. You know what? I don't like it. Even in the name of better beer and better information, I just don't like working with it. To be fair, I have dabbled in it very sparsely but the one time Ettels and I were trying to compare notes with Bru'N'Water... we first came up with different results (one of us could have had something wrong, I suppose) and then we got to the point where we couldn't get the pH to go below 5.4 even if we added a Lake Michigan-sized container of lactic acid. But it's not really the fact that I think it might be inaccurate... it's just the front end of it... it gives me nightmares.
#19
Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:25 PM
I know. You know what? I don't like it. Even in the name of better beer and better information, I just don't like working with it. To be fair, I have dabbled in it very sparsely but the one time Ettels and I were trying to compare notes with Bru'N'Water... we first came up with different results (one of us could have had something wrong, I suppose) and then we got to the point where we couldn't get the pH to go below 5.4 even if we added a Lake Michigan-sized container of lactic acid. But it's not really the fact that I think it might be inaccurate... it's just the front end of it... it gives me nightmares.
We figured out that there was something wrong with your older (2010) version of the spreadsheet. It worked like a charm after downloading the latest (2013) rev. FWIW I have found it to be surprisingly accurate.
#20
Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:47 PM
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