Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Possible kink in my process...


  • Please log in to reply
73 replies to this topic

#1 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 06 March 2014 - 02:31 PM

Ettels Patersbier thread got me thinking about this. This applies only to some of my pale beers... amber beers or higher SRM are not an issue. Picture this: I have 4 gallons of water for my mash and 4 for my sparge. For a gold beer I might dilute that water 75%. Martin has mentioned that just 'neutralizing' my bicarb would get me around all that diluting. So let's say for example I dilute 50%. I take my mash water (50/50 distilled & tap), add my grains and salt additions, get my mash pH correct and move forward. Now I take my other 4 gallons and heat it for the [batch] sparge. I add that water to the grains without acid or salt additions and I check the pH. In an amber or darker beer, the pH is probably in the mid 5s or so. We know that we don't want that sparge to reach 6.0. On a pale beer, I might take the pH and in the past it has crept into the high 5s and even approached 6. If I see that, I hit it with 1ml of lactic acid and check it again. During this time, if my pH is higher than I want, is tannin extraction a reality and if so, how quickly? Do I need to treat the sparge water with acid first when I make a beer that is pale? I know some of you treat ALL of your water but I never really know what to do with sparge water until I take the pH of the sparge. Am I making sense?Ps. A pilsner I made late in 2013 was 7 gallons of distilled and 1 gallon of tap water. I sampled it and it is very nice. Not really a chance that water that low in ions was going to reach a too-high pH, IMO.

#2 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16518 posts

Posted 06 March 2014 - 09:01 PM

As you know I don't deal with a sparge so take what I say with a grain of…well... "no experience". But it is my understanding that you don't have to worry about sparge water pH if you are using DI water. (Someone set me straight if this is wrong.) So when you go 50/50 (tap/DI) on the water and 50/50 (mash/spagre volume) why not just do all DI water in the sparge and all filtered tap-water in the mash? It would require a larger acid addition to your mash to neutralize your alkalinity but would get you to the same place with zero acid needed in the sparge water.

 

ETA: Or just go all DI water for everything  :devil:


Edited by ettels4, 06 March 2014 - 09:02 PM.


#3 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 07 March 2014 - 04:48 AM

Ken, I have figured out for my system which grists will need a little acid in the sparge. I use 10% phosphoric and add .5-1.5 tsp depending on my SRM. I've done it so many times that I pretty much add a little acid and I know what the resulting pH will be. Typically ~5.3-5.6.When I was learning my system, I would check pH then add acid and had some 6.0 pH sparges until I added acid. I never did have astringency issues from the brief period at this pH and I taste my beers very critically.

#4 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:57 AM

As you know I don't deal with a sparge so take what I say with a grain of…well... "no experience". But it is my understanding that you don't have to worry about sparge water pH if you are using DI water. (Someone set me straight if this is wrong.) So when you go 50/50 (tap/DI) on the water and 50/50 (mash/spagre volume) why not just do all DI water in the sparge and all filtered tap-water in the mash? It would require a larger acid addition to your mash to neutralize your alkalinity but would get you to the same place with zero acid needed in the sparge water. ETA: Or just go all DI water for everything  :devil:

Well, I am trying to avoid buying so much distilled water, if there is a way around it. Your suggestion makes sense but I guess I just wonder about this issue... I generally don't like to 'treat' before I know how/what to treat but if I don't treat and that pH is high, is my beer slowly being ruined with tannins?

Ken, I have figured out for my system which grists will need a little acid in the sparge. I use 10% phosphoric and add .5-1.5 tsp depending on my SRM. I've done it so many times that I pretty much add a little acid and I know what the resulting pH will be. Typically ~5.3-5.6.When I was learning my system, I would check pH then add acid and had some 6.0 pH sparges until I added acid. I never did have astringency issues from the brief period at this pH and I taste my beers very critically.

This is what I was envisioning... a situation where making a pale beer just requires an acid addition to the sparge and I just know that from experience. I kegged a Blonde Ale yesterday where I used 50% distilled water and I see that I had the mash pH correct and the sparge pH only made it to 5.7 so I'm thinking that this batch was a good test and it should be okay. I am making another pale beer (a pilsner w/2278 and Hallertau & Spalt hops) tonight so I will probably get the sparge water together and just hit it with 1ml of lactic acid right from the start.Thanks gang.

#5 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:37 AM

don't sparge with really hot water and you should be good.  i've never adjusted my sparge water.  this is all assuming you are batch sparging.  fly sparging has a different set of rules which I have never bothered to really think about.



#6 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 06:39 AM

I meant to add this: Taking the pH is a relatively time-consuming thing... you can't just get the pH in 10 seconds or something, especially with a meter. Take a sample, cool the sample, get your meter in there, wait for it to settle, etc. and that's after the mash (or sparge) has sat there for a bit because it takes some time for everything to mix together and for a pH to be established. If a sparge pH greater than 6.0 was an issue... it might sit that way for 10 minutes before I can knock it down with acid. On today's batch I will pre-acidify the sparge water for that very reason. Thanks guys. 

don't sparge with really hot water and you should be good. i've never adjusted my sparge water. this is all assuming you are batch sparging. fly sparging has a different set of rules which I have never bothered to really think about.

I have heard that temps higher than 180° (not positive on that number) can create tannin issues but also sparge pH. You probably never had that issue because your water is so soft. I only heat my sparge water to about 160° so that's not the issue. But I have had sparge pH reach 6.0 before so then the question becomes... how quickly would tannin extraction happen in the sparge? I think the answer is... don't find out. Acidify the sparge water first so it's not an issue.

Edited by KenLenard, 07 March 2014 - 06:42 AM.


#7 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:03 AM

I have heard that temps higher than 180° (not positive on that number) can create tannin issues but also sparge pH. You probably never had that issue because your water is so soft. I only heat my sparge water to about 160° so that's not the issue. But I have had sparge pH reach 6.0 before so then the question becomes... how quickly would tannin extraction happen in the sparge? I think the answer is... don't find out. Acidify the sparge water first so it's not an issue.

 

last I checked tannin extraction required 3 things (and by this I mean all 3 things):

 

1) high pH

2) high temperature

3) time

 

with batch sparging the contact time is pretty minimal.  you can easily avoid high temperature (above 170F or whatever it is).

 

so even if your pH is a little high in the sparge you might still be A-OK.



#8 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 07:33 AM

last I checked tannin extraction required 3 things (and by this I mean all 3 things): 1) high pH2) high temperature3) time with batch sparging the contact time is pretty minimal.  you can easily avoid high temperature (above 170F or whatever it is). so even if your pH is a little high in the sparge you might still be A-OK.

Hmm. I had this conversation with Denny but we didn't nail it down quite that tight. He mentioned that a sparge pH over 6.0 (whether batch or sparge) can cause problems and the temp was not mentioned. This may have been over on Northern Brewer but I would love for anyone who knows to pipe in here. If tannin-extraction indeed requires all three of those things to happen... that would be interesting. I have not heard that... up to this point.

#9 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:27 AM

Hmm. I had this conversation with Denny but we didn't nail it down quite that tight. He mentioned that a sparge pH over 6.0 (whether batch or sparge) can cause problems and the temp was not mentioned. This may have been over on Northern Brewer but I would love for anyone who knows to pipe in here. If tannin-extraction indeed requires all three of those things to happen... that would be interesting. I have not heard that... up to this point.

 

I think i initially had this discussion with mtn.  he seems pretty knowledgable so i went with it.  you are correct though - with my soft water the grain has sufficient buffering capacity to not end up with a crazy pH in my batch sparge.



#10 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 08:54 AM

I did do some checking and there were some conversations on HBT that suggested that those three things needed to happen together to extract tannins. I wouldn't mind a few other opinions but I have some anecdotal evidence: I made a pale beer in 2013 where I was not super comfortable with all of this yet. The beer had a nasty, stinging aftertaste that was just unbearable. Later in 2013 I made a "pilsner" where I used 7 gallons of distilled water and 1 gallon of tap water. That beer just went on tap last night and it's nice, smooth, delicious. Also, in early 2014 I made a blonde ale where I used just 50% distilled water and according to my notes, everything having to do with pH was perfect. I kegged that beer last night and took a sample. It was room temp and flat and I thought I might have gotten a little bit of that harsh aftertaste but I'm not sure. If all of that is to be taken at face value, it could suggest that the blonde ale needed a lowering of the sparge and/or preboil wort pH because the alkalinity of the water (more bicarb because I only diluted 50%) caused tannin extraction or some other issue. I am making a very pale beer tonight and I'm going to make sure that all pH readings are good and kept LOW.

#11 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 07 March 2014 - 09:23 AM

any idea how high the batch sparge pH was getting in all of those examples?  also the approximate temp of the sparge + grain mixture?


Edited by TheGuv, 07 March 2014 - 09:23 AM.


#12 SchwanzBrewer

SchwanzBrewer

    Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34299 posts
  • LocationKnee deep in business plans

Posted 07 March 2014 - 09:45 AM

What does brun' water tell you to do to the sparge?



#13 Brauer

Brauer

    Frequent Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1857 posts
  • Location1 mile north of Boston

Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:03 AM

If I had Ken's water, I think I'd try acidifying my sparge water to pH 5.5 before heating it up, which would avoid some of the hassle of taking the pH. It would also probably improve your kettle pH. After a few times you should learn how much acid you need.

#14 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:05 AM

any idea how high the batch sparge pH was getting in all of those examples?  also the approximate temp of the sparge + grain mixture?

On the blonde, my notes tell me that the pH of the sparge was 5.7. But... do I trust my meter? Is it possible that it changed over the course of 15 minutes while I recirc'd and ran it off? I didn't add any acid to the sparge on that batch because the pH came in at 5.7. Also, I have been in the habit of heating my sparge water to only 150-160° for the past year or more so the sparge temp should not have been excessive. 

What does brun' water tell you to do to the sparge?

I didn't ask it.  :blush:


Edited by KenLenard, 07 March 2014 - 10:06 AM.


#15 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:07 AM

If I had Ken's water, I think I'd try acidifying my sparge water to pH 5.5 before heating it up, which would avoid some of the hassle of taking the pH. It would also probably improve your kettle pH. After a few times you should learn how much acid you need.

I'm thinking that I will do this on a pale lager later today. When my sparge water is sitting in the pot and still at room temp, I'll add some acid and check the pH.

#16 SchwanzBrewer

SchwanzBrewer

    Grand Duke of Inappropriate Announcements

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 34299 posts
  • LocationKnee deep in business plans

Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:35 AM

If I had Ken's water, I think I'd try acidifying my sparge water to pH 5.5 before heating it up, which would avoid some of the hassle of taking the pH. It would also probably improve your kettle pH. After a few times you should learn how much acid you need.

 

I like this.

 

 

 

I didn't ask it.  :blush:

 

:covreyes:

 

If you use it correctly, I believe it should tell you the appropriate amount of acid to add to the sparge water (cold like Brauer said) for a given recipe. Kinda takes the guesswork out.



#17 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 07 March 2014 - 10:51 AM

I'm thinking that I will do this on a pale lager later today. When my sparge water is sitting in the pot and still at room temp, I'll add some acid and check the pH.

 

certainly kettle pH matters.  if you need to adjust for that anyway acidifying the sparge a little bit to possibly help in both places wouldn't be bad.



#18 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 12:17 PM

certainly kettle pH matters.  if you need to adjust for that anyway acidifying the sparge a little bit to possibly help in both places wouldn't be bad.

Yeah, I'm with you. I do try to shoot for a kettle pH in the mid 5s so if I just acidify the sparge water first, that should cut down on the chance of a sparge pH/tannin issue and might wipe out the need to even check the kettle pH.

:covreyes:

I know. You know what? I don't like it. Even in the name of better beer and better information, I just don't like working with it. To be fair, I have dabbled in it very sparsely but the one time Ettels and I were trying to compare notes with Bru'N'Water... we first came up with different results (one of us could have had something wrong, I suppose) and then we got to the point where we couldn't get the pH to go below 5.4 even if we added a Lake Michigan-sized container of lactic acid. But it's not really the fact that I think it might be inaccurate... it's just the front end of it... it gives me nightmares. :D

#19 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16518 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 01:25 PM

I know. You know what? I don't like it. Even in the name of better beer and better information, I just don't like working with it. To be fair, I have dabbled in it very sparsely but the one time Ettels and I were trying to compare notes with Bru'N'Water... we first came up with different results (one of us could have had something wrong, I suppose) and then we got to the point where we couldn't get the pH to go below 5.4 even if we added a Lake Michigan-sized container of lactic acid. But it's not really the fact that I think it might be inaccurate... it's just the front end of it... it gives me nightmares. :D

We figured out that there was something wrong with your older (2010) version of the spreadsheet. It worked like a charm after downloading the latest (2013) rev. FWIW I have found it to be surprisingly accurate. 



#20 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53514 posts

Posted 07 March 2014 - 05:47 PM

Okay, anyone care to hear about the mash & sparge for this beer? I'm exasperated by what I just went through. This was 8.5 lbs of pilsner malt, a pound of Vienna and 4 ounces of carapils... so all pale. 2 gallons of tap and 2 gallons of distilled into the MT with the grains and about 5g of calcium chloride. I take the pH and it's 5.8. I had to add 1ml of lactic acid for every .1 difference or so it looked. Over 15-20 minutes, I added 5ml of lactic acid and got to 5.3. Oh, and I calibrated my meter before I started and measured my tap water which is always 6.6 and the meter measured it at 6.6 so I'm okay with the meter. I let the mash go and then mixed 2 gallons of tap and 2 gallons of distilled for the sparge and checked the pH... 6.2 So I added 1.5ml of lactic acid and it went to 5.8. I was thinking I should get it to 5.5 as suggested here so I added another 1ml and checked again... 4.7!!!!! WHAT!!!!!????? I tasted the water and tasted nothing but water. I ran off my mash and added the heated sparge water (~150°) and checked the sparge pH. 5.5. I ran off the sparge and checked the kettle pH. It flickered between 5.5 and 5.6. I feel okay about it now, I guess. But I have no idea why it took SO much acid plus 5g of CaCl to get my mash pH to 5.3 and I have no idea why the sparge water fluctuated so much. Boil has started.


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users