73 replies to this topic

[neddles]

So when you had these pale beers that were harsh, grainy, husky, what was the issue? This sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing.

Zero pH control or monitoring while using my tap water 100% that has a bicarbonate level of like 96 or so.

[Big Nake]

Zero pH control or monitoring while using my tap water 100% that has a bicarbonate level of like 96 or so.

I just don't get how this pils I have was 7 gallons of distilled water and 1 gallon of tap, I paid close attention to mash, sparge and kettle pH and everything else seems like it was exactly right. The only other possibility is that my meter is telling me that the pH readings are one way when they're actually higher than that. I can't see any other reason why this would be the case especially after I made a number of decent pale beers. I'm this close to buying the MW-101 so I can have something to compare my Milwaukee PH55 against.

[neddles]

I just don't get how this pils I have was 7 gallons of distilled water and 1 gallon of tap, I paid close attention to mash, sparge and kettle pH and everything else seems like it was exactly right. The only other possibility is that my meter is telling me that the pH readings are one way when they're actually higher than that. I can't see any other reason why this would be the case especially after I made a number of decent pale beers. I'm this close to buying the MW-101 so I can have something to compare my Milwaukee PH55 against.

Yeah I dunno, its hard to say. Did you call the guy at Milwaukee about that warning message you were getting from your meter? 

[Big Nake]

Yeah I dunno, its hard to say. Did you call the guy at Milwaukee about that warning message you were getting from your meter?

No, I need to call over there. Can I assume the number is on their site or something? I'm going to call them first and then figure out what is next.

[Brauer]

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]So this point doesn't get lost, I want anyone and everyone with an opinion to weigh in on this thought...[/color] 

Quote

If I were making a pale beer and poured my 4 gallons of sparge water into the MT with no additions and the pH of that sparge water was between 6.6 and 7.0 and the water had no additions made to it and it was 160° and then my sparge sat for 10-15 minutes until it was drained... would that cause a tannin, harsh flavor, haze issue?

 

I don't think there is any way to easily answer this.  There are conditions under which pH 7 water would raise the pH over 6 and ones where it wouldn't make much pH change at all.  It sounds like you add a relatively high percent of your water as sparge, instead of balancing the runoffs, which won't help, and you have high alkalinity, of course.  The pH itself has less to do with it.

 

I think it's a mistake to think of tannins like an on/off switch. I think it's better to think of them as a continuum.  Every beer has tannin. The more you push conditions, the more you'll have. The guidelines are suggestions for them not getting out of hand, but  I think a lot of commercial beers are too tannic and they probably watch their numbers pretty closely.  Some breweries go to even greater lengths, such as separating husks and limiting sparge water, to get tannin levels down.

[Brauer]

By the way, if you don't know what tannin tastes/feels like, chew on a grape skin.  You really need to be able to identify a few things as a brewer: Diacetyl, acetaldehyde, and tannin are probably the biggest ones that can ruin a beer.

[Big Nake]

Guys:  Again, many thanks.  I also spoke to one of my brewing buds about this (he's on a number of other boards but not this one) and while he has soft water and says he doesn't know for sure about the sparge conditions, he did say that if it were him, he would be adjusting the pH of the sparge water ahead of time as mentioned by Brauer and as we have been discussing.  Without anything else to grab onto, I'm going with that as the source of this problem.  So, on that note... I am going to make a starter with White Labs San Diego Superyeast some time today or tonight.  I have a pale ale recipe on deck with some Magnum and Amarillo (a pale beer, SRM 7) and I will employ this method on that batch even though beers of that color have never had this issue.  Then I will make another blonde ale and do the same thing.  I also shot an email to the guys at Milwaukee Instruments to ask about this message and my meter in general.  I was perusing the forums about meters yesterday and found a number of people having issues with MANY Milwaukee meters and a few sentiments like "I'm going with Hanna next time!".  Ettels, I know you said you like your MW101 but even there, you had to contact them because the probe wasn't playing ball or something.  Maybe they'll replace mine, send me a new probe, tell me how to recalibrate it, etc.  Cheers Beerheads.

[neddles]

https://www.braukais...er_Buying_Guide

 

The cosmetics have changed since he reviewed it.

[Big Nake]

https://www.braukais...er_Buying_Guide The cosmetics have changed since he reviewed it.

Okay, good to know. I don't like that Kai suggested that meters are only good for 2-3 years. Sheesh. So I called Milwaukee Instruments yesterday and got their "we're not here now" message so I emailed their support address with my concerns. I will wait to hear back from them before deciding what to do. Currently, Amazon has the MW-101 for $75. If I decided to get one, it would be like saying the PH55 is a toy that doesn't work which kind of bothers me. But it's possible that I got a bad one or possibly misused it and futzed it up.

[HVB]

Okay, good to know. I don't like that Kai suggested that meters are only good for 2-3 years. Sheesh. So I called Milwaukee Instruments yesterday and got their "we're not here now" message so I emailed their support address with my concerns. I will wait to hear back from them before deciding what to do. Currently, Amazon has the MW-101 for $75. If I decided to get one, it would be like saying the PH55 is a toy that doesn't work which kind of bothers me. But it's possible that I got a bad one or possibly misused it and futzed it up.

 

https://www.water-te...ukee_mw102.html

 

I have the 102 and like it but if you are interested in the 101 they have it here for 69 https://www.water-te...1_ph_meter.html

Edited by drez77, 11 March 2014 - 09:27 AM.

[Big Nake]

https://www.water-te...ukee_mw102.html I have the 102 and like it but if you are interested in the 101 they have it here for 69 https://www.water-te...1_ph_meter.html

Thanks Drez! I appreciate it!

[HVB]

Thanks Drez! I appreciate it!

I am here for you

[Big Nake]

Peeps: I have good news and bad news. The good news is that my blonde ale came out okay. The bad news is that I'm not sending you any!   Okay, for real... if anyone wants/needs to trade beers, I'm down.  But I don't have the time at the moment to bottles some of this, pack it up and send it.  Rich mentioned wanting some MLPA so maybe a beer pass will be the result of all of this.

 

So onto the blonde.  My notes say that the my meter originally showed a pH of 5.2 for the mash but then I wrote that it moved to 5.3.  I didn't really need to futz with it but I added a small amount of acid, like ½ml or something so the mash pH was 5.2.  Then my notes show that when I took the pH of the sparge, my meter showed 5.7.  I quickly recirced and drained it and then took the kettle pH which was 5.5.  So this beer did not suffer this issue and my guess is that because it was made with Rahr Pale Ale malt... which we were saying lowered the pH a bit... it had something to do with it.  I also had a relatively low mash pH which may have carried over somewhat to the sparge.  All of this points to the fact that the high sparge pH could have been a factor in other beers... this beer is okay and the sparge pH was under 6.0.  All of that said, I could see adding acid to the sparge water on every batch to lower it.  That would probably make it unnecessary to add any acid directly to the kettle to adjust it because it should already be lined up nicely by that point.  Interesting stuff.

Edited by KenLenard, 11 March 2014 - 10:45 AM.

[Big Nake]

Update on some of this:In post 20 of this thread I was making a pale beer... pilsner malt, a pound of Vienna, some carapils, noble hops, 2278. That beer has gotten to a keg, chilled and carbed. I grabbed a sample (2 pints... just to be sure) when it was done and it is very pale, pretty clear considering it was the first two pints from the keg and it was very good. I think I may have had a meter issue and ended up adding quite a bit more acid than was required but this beer is very good and does not have that grainy, husky, harsh flavor. In that time I have made a couple more pale beers including more pilsners (2278 and 2308) and two kolsch batches. My expectations are very high for all of these beers. The one I sampled will sit for at least another month before it comes to the taps. As far as this glaring issue I had where I was probably not paying enough attention to the sparge pH... all I can say is that I either missed class that day or I kept hearing brewer after brewer say that you cannot have tannin extraction in a batch sparge. There is no question that lowering the pH of the sparge was the missing ingredient. The issue with the meter may have been some light filmy schputz that was on the probe and an overnight soak in white distilled vinegar helped with that too. Cheers peeps.

Edited by KenLenard, 14 April 2014 - 09:39 AM.