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Suppressing Esters


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#1 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:25 AM

I brewed my Kolsch again about a month ago. It doesn't seem to have as many nice pear esters as my previous batch.

 

I fermented at the same temp.

Had about the same fermentation schedule.

Same grist.

Same yeast.

Oxygenation - both were oxygenated, but I have no clue whether the same amount was used. I have no way to measure that yet.

Same OG.

Same FG.

Same mash temp.

PH - I acidified the sparge water on batch 2. Did not on batch 1. Both batches used aciduated malt. I may have gone low on the sparge for batch 2. 

Cold crashing - batch 1 was crashed in the keg. 1 keg got biofine, the other nothing. batch 2 was cold crashed in the fermenter, gel added, but was only at crashing temp for a day before the temp rose again for fermenting another beer.

 

I just carbed batch 2. It hasn't cleared yet totally. Also was just carbonated this week. Had a little carb bite still. Needs to settle.

 

So, any other markers I should look for? Anything above strike you as the key to the difference?

 

Batch 2 is slightly maltier than batch 1. Batch 1 was a little more balanced with the nice pear esters. Still a really good beer, but I'm looking to whore out on some medals and I might get dinged for a lack of esters.



#2 HVB

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:37 AM

Did you ferment both in the same style fermenter?  Pressure can help to hold esters down.



#3 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 11:52 AM

yup. same fermenter.



#4 3rd party JKor

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:12 PM

Cool band name.



#5 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:13 PM

Was your pitching rate the same?

 

As for judging, I'd ding you if the esters are too high but not if there were none. "subtle fruit aroma...is acceptable, but not always present"



#6 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:28 PM

Was your pitching rate the same?

 

As for judging, I'd ding you if the esters are too high but not if there were none. "subtle fruit aroma...is acceptable, but not always present"

 

Yeah, I'd expect it to score well, but in BOS round when you aren't looking at guidelines it might not win over one that had a little more.

 

Pitch rate - calculated the same, and process was the same, but I can't measure it for sure.



#7 HVB

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:34 PM

Out of curiosity have you shared this recipe here?



#8 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:50 PM

Out of curiosity have you shared this recipe here?

 

I think so. It's not a trade secret or anything.

 

72% pils

18% munich 6L

6% carapils

4% acid malt

 

Nugget for bitterning (high alpha is all in low quantity) - 18ibu

Hallertau @15 - 5 IBU

23 IBU

 

149-150 mash temp

 

WYeast 2565 - use yeast calc for your batch size for starter

Ferment at 58*F

Ramp to 65 over 7 days

 

Adjust your water to relieve hardness if needed.

No salt additions for me.



#9 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:51 PM

Yeah, I'd expect it to score well, but in BOS round when you aren't looking at guidelines it might not win over one that had a little more.

 

Pitch rate - calculated the same, and process was the same, but I can't measure it for sure.

I've seen it go either way. Some judges will zero in on a really nice/interesting ester others will push for a really clean beer. I like they way this beer isn't done yet but has already made it to the BOS round  :D



#10 HVB

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:52 PM

I think so. It's not a trade secret or anything.

 

72% pils

18% munich 6L

6% carapils

4% acid malt

 

Nugget for bitterning (high alpha is all in low quantity) - 18ibu

Hallertau @15 - 5 IBU

23 IBU

 

149-150 mash temp

 

WYeast 2565 - use yeast calc for your batch size for starter

Ferment at 58*F

Ramp to 65 over 7 days

 

Adjust your water to relieve hardness if needed.

No salt additions for me.

Thanks.  I have been craving a Kolsch now that the weather is warming up here.



#11 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 12:54 PM

I've seen it go either way. Some judges will zero in on a really nice/interesting ester others will push for a really clean beer. I like they way this beer isn't done yet but has already made it to the BOS round  :D

 

It's a 38-42 beer. So is the first one. I just personally like a little more esters to make it more interesting. I was thinking mini BOS, not main BOS. 

Thanks.  I have been craving a Kolsch now that the weather is warming up here.

 

You might not need the acid malt if your water isn't hard. That can change things more than likely.



#12 Big Nake

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:10 PM

No idea. I just made two completely different Kolsch batches both made with 2565. The Cologne Malt I used on the first one has quite a bit of color to it. I can't say anything about ester production other than I try to keep them "low". Fermenting at lower temps will usually make a cleaner, less-estery beer and pitch rate can have an impact on esters as well. Is there any chance that Kolsch #2 fermented at just a slightly lower temp? One of my Kolsch recipes was from a commercial brewery here and he said that he used a proprietary kolsch yeast at 61° for 12 days. Mine was probably fermenting in the 60-61° range.

#13 MakeMeHoppy

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 01:36 PM

WYeast 2565 - use yeast calc for your batch size for starter

Ferment at 58*F

Ramp to 65 over 7 days

 

 

I would suspect this. It is very hard to control how much fermentation occurs at what temperature. The one with more esters may have fermented slower to start and was doing most of the work when the temp was higher.....  just my 2 cents



#14 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 02:38 PM

I make damn near an identical starter for beers in this gravity range. Starter for both beers. Ferm temp is the same. 

 

Oh and 58 is my ambient temp. That should matter a lot to you guys. Fermenter temp was consistently 62, 63. But that was the same for both batches.

 

I tried like hell to treat the beer the same for each brew. Now, my ability to measure every little friggin thing is not up to par for really figuring it out I'd say. Just wanted to make sure I'd hit all the bases for why it might happen.



#15 Big Nake

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:33 PM

I make damn near an identical starter for beers in this gravity range. Starter for both beers. Ferm temp is the same.  Oh and 58 is my ambient temp. That should matter a lot to you guys. Fermenter temp was consistently 62, 63. But that was the same for both batches. I tried like hell to treat the beer the same for each brew. Now, my ability to measure every little friggin thing is not up to par for really figuring it out I'd say. Just wanted to make sure I'd hit all the bases for why it might happen.

I hear that. If you're wringing your hands over some of this stuff, better equipment might be necessary. I have no idea what the health of my yeast is and I have no idea how many good cells, bad cells or total cells I have. My primary temps for lagers are the same because of my fridge but my ales might fluctuate but not enough for me to tell... they're always in the low 60s. I have no idea how to measure how much O2 is in solution and about a hundred other things where I just let things go. Yes, I focus carefully on what I can control and what I can measure but after that... I say, Beer Gods, please make me some good beer, could ya? :P

#16 djinkc

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 03:43 PM

I make damn near an identical starter for beers in this gravity range. Starter for both beers. Ferm temp is the same. 

 

Oh and 58 is my ambient temp. That should matter a lot to you guys. Fermenter temp was consistently 62, 63. But that was the same for both batches.

 

I tried like hell to treat the beer the same for each brew. Now, my ability to measure every little friggin thing is not up to par for really figuring it out I'd say. Just wanted to make sure I'd hit all the bases for why it might happen.

 

Different pitch rates are possible even though you tried.  2nd generation starter or a different smack pak?  



#17 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 24 April 2014 - 09:30 PM

Different pitch rates are possible even though you tried.  2nd generation starter or a different smack pak?  

 

Definitely from different packs. both first gen. I wish I had everything I wanted on my wish list for really reusing yeast.



#18 Brauer

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 04:07 AM

WYeast 2565 - use yeast calc for your batch size for starter

How big a starter and pitch?  For a Koesch, some brewers like an ale-sized 0.75-1 B/L*P others prefer a Lager-sized 1.5 B/L*P.  I imagine one would make a more estery beer than the other. Pack viability might be enough to push you closer to one than another, but I assume the calculator takes age into account.



#19 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 07:46 AM

How big a starter and pitch?  For a Koesch, some brewers like an ale-sized 0.75-1 B/L*P others prefer a Lager-sized 1.5 B/L*P.  I imagine one would make a more estery beer than the other. Pack viability might be enough to push you closer to one than another, but I assume the calculator takes age into account.

 

1 B/L*P is what I aim for for most of my beers. I think Denny posted an article on esters a while back that showed that pitch rate had much less to do with ester production than ferm temp and a couple other markers. IIRC, it was 4th on the list of importance. Maybe that was enough to push this over the ester edge so to speak.

 

I really wish I had a lab. :blush:



#20 Big Nake

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Posted 25 April 2014 - 02:51 PM

I don't know if this is relevant but my tastebuds sometimes report some off-the-map results when I'm drinking beer and maybe I'm sick or I ate something unusual, went from one beer to another, etc. Any chance it was a temporary thing? I'll say this... a couple weekends ago I tapped some very clean, very crisp Czech Pils and had two glasses of it. Not wanting to have anymore (I wanted to let it lager longer), I started drinking MLPA. That was the most estery & fruity glass of MLPA ever in the history of the world. That keg of MLPA is now gone and all the time I was drinking it, I was all, Damn, this is really good & crisp MLPA... really nice batch but that couple of glasses after the Czech Pils was REALLY different. Just a thought.


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