73 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Okay, now someone is going to have to come get me and take me away in a straightjacket.I just checked my notes for a blonde ale I made earlier this year. It's in a keg waiting in line to be carbed. It was almost the exact same beer... grain bill had Rahr pale ale malt instead of pilsner but I also used a pound of Vienna and 4 ounces of carahell. Basically the same beer... SRM 3. I did the exact same thing with the water on that one... 50/50. I only added 4g of calcium chloride instead of the 5 I added to today's beer. My notes say that the pH was 5.2 - 5.3 and so I added "a few drops" of lactic acid and everything settled at 5.2. How can that happen on that beer but I had to add 5ml of lactic acid to today's beer? Is my meter a lemon? I can't see how these two beers that are almost the same be that different.* shakes head *

[neddles]

Yeah something is wrong here. I still have your tap water plugged into a BrunWater file. I plugged in your grist and 5g CaCl2 to the mash water with 50% distilled dilution. It predicts you would have needed 2.2ml lactic acid (88%) to achieve a pH of about 5.3. Seeing your follow-up on the notes from your blonde ale makes me wonder about it being one of a few things here. 

 

#1 Your meter is off/shitty/defective. If you just calibrated it then it should have been correct. The meter is less suspect in my mind than #2.

 

#2 Your assumptions about your water are wrong. Meaning that either the distilled is not so distilled as you think or, more likely, your home water source has significant variability to it. Are you on Lk. Michigan water? I would think that would be relatively stable but who knows really.

 

#3 Did you accidentally put something other than calcium chloride in your water? Probably not, but if you did accidentally put in sodium biacarb (or maybe chalk?) that could do it.

 

A couple other things of note. 

-The quality of distilled water can easily be checked with TDS meter which can be obtained for less than the cost of a Ward Labs test, so I wouldn't send in your distilled water to them.

-Can you get a water report from your municipality? Ask them about the source or if there are various sources or a changing mineral content.

-Your pH meter should ideally be one that reads to the hundredths place. With only accuracy to the tenths place you could see a pH of 5.3 while it could actually be anywhere from 5.25-5.34. And I wonder if calibration with just tenths place accuracy magnifies the problem. I don't think this is the source of your trouble today.

 

If you post on another forum about this feel free to link it here. I'd like to see where this goes or what other people suggest might be the problem.

[Big Nake]

I will say this... the brewday is over and this may have been the lightest-colored wort I have ever seen as well as the clearest wort I have ever seen.  I took a little sample as it was transferring to the primary and it tasted just fine... sweet, hoppy, smooth.  I have absolutely no idea how things could be so bouncy with this attempt I made tonight.  First off, my meter has been acting weird... like it did when I first got it.  I stuck it into some 4.0 solution this afternoon and it read 3.6.  Then I put it into some 7.0 solution and it read light 6.7 or so. I calibrated it but it has a weird thing where it sets the 7.0 and when it asks for the 4.0 solution and I place it in there, it says "WRNG" for like 2 or 3 minutes... then it finishes.  I have no idea what that means and I have looked all over for an answer.  But after it finished I checked my 6.6pH water and it read it exactly right.  Also, I am brewing buds with many, many Lake Michigan water people and everyone agrees... the water is consistent as can be.  It's always the same, year round and the Northwest Water District has made it clear that they keep the water composition the same.  Also, I don't think there's inconsistent distilled water is there?  I thought RO could vary but distilled was all-zeroes-all-the-time and also... I have used the distilled water I used tonight many, many times because I'll buy 20 gallons at a time.  The only thing I put in the mash was CaCl.  What about this... how long do you think the pH takes to stabilize when you check the mash, the sparge water, etc.?  Do you think my readings could have just been off because everything wasn't settled in yet?  I wasn't trying to rush... from the time I added the water to the grains until I decided I had enough (after checking the pH over and over) was probably 30 minutes or so.  I have no idea but I'm kinda glad this brewday is over.  Taste tests on the sparge water and also the wort show me no problems whatsoever and again... the wort was as pale and as clear & gold as I have ever seen it.  I'll report back.

[neddles]

No I would not think that the distilled could realistically be off, but who knows. If you know your water is consistent then the only other thing my brain can come up with is the pH meter.

 

I have heard that you should measure the pH 15 minutes into the mash for the reason of "letting it stabilize". I don't remember where, maybe John Palmer on a Brew Strong episode? And I think MTN recommended that to me a long while back too. Anyhow it seems like your lactic addition should have eventually taken it much lower than it did if you were just measuring too early on.

 

Glad you got it right in the end and will get good beer out of it.

[Big Nake]

Glad you got it right in the end and will get good beer out of it.

Well, that remains to be seen.On the checking of the pH... if I waited 15 mins every time I made an adjustment tonight, it would have been 90 minutes of futzing with the pH. The recurring oddities with the meter have made me wonder if I shouldn't try to get a different/better model. This Milwaukee PH55 is an entry-level meter and although it has shown signs of being solid, it has also driven me crazy a few times.What about this: When you calibrate your meter, do you pour the calibration solutions into a small cup or something? When you're done, do you pour those out? Do you just leave them in the cup, do you pour them back into the bottle they came in? I pour them into a cup and just leave them sitting on a shelf in my beer closet. Do you think the pH of the calibration solution changes as it's left there? If so, maybe that is causing issues with the calibration of the meter? I knew the upkeep of the meter was going to be a pain and I know a number of people who don't buy them for that reason. Now I'm just grabbing at straws.

[neddles]

On the checking of the pH... if I waited 15 mins every time I made an adjustment tonight, it would have been 90 minutes of futzing with the pH. The recurring oddities with the meter have made me wonder if I shouldn't try to get a different/better model. This Milwaukee PH55 is an entry-level meter and although it has shown signs of being solid, it has also driven me crazy a few times.What about this: When you calibrate your meter, do you pour the calibration solutions into a small cup or something? When you're done, do you pour those out? Do you just leave them in the cup, do you pour them back into the bottle they came in? I pour them into a cup and just leave them sitting on a shelf in my beer closet. Do you think the pH of the calibration solution changes as it's left there? If so, maybe that is causing issues with the calibration of the meter? I knew the upkeep of the meter was going to be a pain and I know a number of people who don't buy them for that reason. Now I'm just grabbing at straws.

I need to do more homework on how often to calibrate the meter. I haven't calibrated before every brew session. But if it has been a month or more since the last one I will calibrate. It has only been off a few hundredths each time so probably not necessary to do it as often as I have. I avoided buying one for a long time because the upkeep is not sexy. But making my beer as good as I can is sexy and the pH strips weren't cutting it. I have poured out the solution when I am done and used fresh solution each time. I can't speak to wether or not keeping the solution around in a sealed container after using it is OK or not.

 

FWIW AJ DeLange's post on pH meter calibration is here. https://www.homebrew...bration-302256/

Forewarned, AJ is detailed.

[Big Nake]

What brand of meter do you have? Check out this calibration vid for my model. My meter has never, ever, ever, ever calibrated this quickly... not even right out of the box. Warning: This guy's accent suggests he likes to eat taters. :Phttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crUvzkvG3e0

[Dave McG]

A few points, after many beers tonight:

 

Lake Michigan water is VERY consistent. If you compare from Chicago to Muskegan to Milwaukee to Green Bay, we are all within a few ppm of each other, year round. I've pulled reports fro Chicago going back many years with no significant change, and the reports are available quarterly.

 

Leaving your calibration solution out is bad. Even perfect distilled water, with a pH of 7, will become acidic if exposed to the atmosphere. CO2 in air is dissolved into the solution and will tend toward it's equilibrium at a pH of 5.65. I'll make a SWAG that a calibration solution is distilled water with buffering agents added. The buffers resist change, but they might not be sufficient to stop it entirely. Air provides an essentially unlimited source of CO2.

 

In short, use new batches of calibration solution each time. It will change if it is exposed to air.

[neddles]

What brand of meter do you have? Check out this calibration vid for my model. My meter has never, ever, ever, ever calibrated this quickly... not even right out of the box. Warning: This guy's accent suggests he likes to eat taters. :Phttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crUvzkvG3e0

That tater eater dude you are referring to is the guy I talked to on the phone when I called Milwaukee. He was great and landed me a new meter and extra probe with no hassle. I have a Milwaukee 101.

 

A few points, after many beers tonight:

 

Lake Michigan water is VERY consistent. If you compare from Chicago to Muskegan to Milwaukee to Green Bay, we are all within a few ppm of each other, year round. I've pulled reports fro Chicago going back many years with no significant change, and the reports are available quarterly.

 

Leaving your calibration solution out is bad. Even perfect distilled water, with a pH of 7, will become acidic if exposed to the atmosphere. CO2 in air is dissolved into the solution and will tend toward it's equilibrium at a pH of 5.65. I'll make a SWAG that a calibration solution is distilled water with buffering agents added. The buffers resist change, but they might not be sufficient to stop it entirely. Air provides an essentially unlimited source of CO2.

 

In short, use new batches of calibration solution each time. It will change if it is exposed to air.

Yeah I wondered. This sounds logical to me. This could all be a case of your calibration solution being old and having a shift in pH. Hopefully its just that simple. Water source sounds like its pretty solid and predictable.

[Brauer]

I let the mash go and then mixed 2 gallons of tap and 2 gallons of distilled for the sparge and checked the pH... 6.2 So I added 1.5ml of lactic acid and it went to 5.8. I was thinking I should get it to 5.5 as suggested here so I added another 1ml and checked again... 4.7!!!!! WHAT!!!!!????? I tasted the water and tasted nothing but water. 

I figured you'd worry about this, and I almost said something, but water pH will fluctuate wildly with acid additions since it's not buffered.  The important thing is that you knock some of the alkalinity out so the mash determines the pH.  Next time you can add a little less, but know that you don't have to worry if it goes a little low.

 

I just checked my notes for a blonde ale I made earlier this year. It's in a keg waiting in line to be carbed. It was almost the exact same beer... grain bill had Rahr pale ale malt instead of pilsner but I also used a pound of Vienna and 4 ounces of carahell. 

I think it's just that the grist seems to be completely different between the beers.  Rahr Pale Malt seems to have a distilled water mash pH about the same as Vienna, but pilsner malts can be 0.25 pH points higher.  If you used wheat in either beer, that could be a factor, too, since that can have a distilled water mash pH over 6.0.

[Big Nake]

Okay: in regard to the solutions... I have these small, tapered beer glasses that are great for this. I pour a small amount of the 4 in a glass, the 7 in another glass, etc. When I'm done, I usually leave that solution in there... primarily because I feel like I might be calibrating the meter again the next day! But I will just toss it and always start with fresh solution.On the distilled: Can we all agree that distilled water should always be zeroes? Can we all agree that sealed distilled water bottles should be good to use and should not 'go bad'?Brauer: Thanks for the information on the acid w/water alone. That freaked me out. Let me be clear on this blonde ale vs. the pilsner I made yesterday. The blonde was 8 lbs of Rahr Pale Ale Malt, 1 pound of Vienna and 4 oz of Carahell. The pilsner was 8.5 lbs pilser, 1 lb Vienna and 4 oz of carapils. Both batches were 50/50 on the water. The blonde had 4g of CacCl added to the mash and made it to 5.2 with no acid. The pils had almost 5g of CaCl added and required 5ml of lactic acid to make it to 5.3. Something weird there, right? Are you suggesting that the difference in pale ale malt vs. pilsner malt made that difference? I would be shocked but relieved if you said that.Ettels: Did you have to call Milwaukee because your meter was acting up? Maybe I should contact them about this message "WRNG" (wrong?) I get when I calibrate.Thanks for the help guys! I appreciate it!EDIT: I wanted to mention that I have made a number of pale beers using 6 or 7 (out of 8) gallons of distilled water and they have been very good and very predictable to make... I had none of the surprises I had last night. But I keep hearing that if you just 'neutralize' the bicarb with acid, the distilled may not be necessary. So this 50% distilled pilsner was a sort of test. I could always go back to making beers like this with a high percentage of distilled but I wanted to see if this was true about neutralizing.

Edited by KenLenard, 08 March 2014 - 09:12 AM.

[Brauer]

Brauer: Are you suggesting that the difference in pale ale malt vs. pilsner malt made that difference? I would be shocked but relieved if you said that.

Rahr Pale Malt has been reported to run low in the past, but it could vary by year or lot.

 

You could run a quick test to determine if it is the base malt.  Mill a bit of the Rahr and the Pilsner, separately. Put a couple ounces of each into a cup each of 165F distilled water.  Come back in 15 minutes or more and check the pH of each. If you see something like the Pilsner at pH 5.7 and the Rahr at pH 5.5, you'll have your answer.

[neddles]

Ken, I am sure your distilled water is fine.

 

Yes I called Milwaukee directly and that dude in the video answered the phone (I think his name was Brian). Anyhow my unit was defective in that the electrical shielding wasn't working and so the readout would constantly jump all over the place. They sent me a new unit and probe and told me to keep the old probe, that way I would get a free probe for my troubles. Had the new unit in 3 days.

 

Brauer, I like your suggestion to check the distilled water pH. I have some Rahr Pale ale on hand and might try this. To understand this better, I want to ask, where in Ken's 5.2pH Blonde do you think the extra acidity came from to get his pH to 5.2 with no acid addition? His mash water was only 50% distilled and his tap water has 138ppm bicarbonate in both cases. Seems like the distilled water pH of the Rahr would have to be lower than 5.5 no?

[Big Nake]

Ken, I am sure your distilled water is fine. Yes I called Milwaukee directly and that dude in the video answered the phone (I think his name was Brian). Anyhow my unit was defective in that the electrical shielding wasn't working and so the readout would constantly jump all over the place. They sent me a new unit and probe and told me to keep the old probe, that way I would get a free probe for my troubles. Had the new unit in 3 days. Brauer, I like your suggestion to check the distilled water pH. I have some Rahr Pale ale on hand and might try this. To understand this better, I want to ask, where in Ken's 5.2pH Blonde do you think the extra acidity came from to get his pH to 5.2 with no acid addition? His mash water was only 50% distilled and his tap water has 138ppm bicarbonate in both cases. Seems like the distilled water pH of the Rahr would have to be lower than 5.5 no?

I like this suggestion with the malt & distilled water and I may try it. I will say... these were almost the same beer. Water was the same, only CaCl added and it was within a gram. Remember too that it wasn't just a smidge of acid needed on the pils... it was 5ml! That is a shit-ton of acid for me to add although I have not tried a pilsner with 50% distilled... it's usually more like 75% or even 88% distilled. Also, for the record... the pils was Best Malz.I might call Milwaukee and ask a few questions about the calibration and this WRNG message I'm getting. I don't really think my meter was hosed yesterday because I did [eventually] calibrate it successfully and it DID read my Lake Michigan water at 6.6 as is always the case. I have a lot of input of my water being 6.6 including my Ward Labs report and two local breweries where the brewers have told me flat out that they can rely on the pH of the LM water to be 6.6 so that much seems solid.Guys, thanks again. I feel better being able to bounce this around with you because I saw some FUH-reaky stuff last night. Btw, that pilsner is now being actively fermented with 2278 in my lager primary fridge and it smells very nice. Hallertau for bittering and 2 late additions of Spalt. Yum!

[Brauer]

Brauer, I like your suggestion to check the distilled water pH. I have some Rahr Pale ale on hand and might try this. To understand this better, I want to ask, where in Ken's 5.2pH Blonde do you think the extra acidity came from to get his pH to 5.2 with no acid addition? His mash water was only 50% distilled and his tap water has 138ppm bicarbonate in both cases. Seems like the distilled water pH of the Rahr would have to be lower than 5.5 no?

He did dilute his water 50%, add CaCl2, and add "a few drops" of acid, so it is hard to say if a lower pH on the Rahr would be enough.  

 

I don't really think my meter was hosed yesterday because I did [eventually] calibrate it successfully and it DID read my Lake Michigan water at 6.6 as is always the case. I have a lot of input of my water being 6.6 including my Ward Labs report and two local breweries where the brewers have told me flat out that they can rely on the pH of the LM water to be 6.6 so that much seems solid.

In the lab, I re-check my calibration by re-testing the pH 7 and pH 4 buffers.  If they read correctly, I trust my calibration. IF they read wrong, I re-calibrate.  I would trust the pH of those buffers more than tap water, whose unbuffered pH might change simply by how much air is dissolved in it.

[Steve Urquell]

Ken, I've used a few bags of Rahr Pale ale and they always ran a couple tenths lower than any other malt I've used. It's been noted in multiple forums over the years. https://www.homebrew...se-malt-251628/Also you do know that buffer solutions expire after 3 months or so right? I use powdered buffer capsules to mix my own with distilled water so I don't have to order them frequently. I posted a thread about them on HBT with martin and AJ weighing in. https://www.homebrew...apsules-459309/

[Big Nake]

Ken, I've used a few bags of Rahr Pale ale and they always ran a couple tenths lower than any other malt I've used. It's been noted in multiple forums over the years. https://www.homebrew...se-malt-251628/Also you do know that buffer solutions expire after 3 months or so right? I use powdered buffer capsules to mix my own with distilled water so I don't have to order them frequently. I posted a thread about them on HBT with martin and AJ weighing in.https://www.homebrew...apsules-459309/

Interesting about the Rahr Pale Ale malt. Seems like quite a fluctuation but I'm going to keep it in mind. I'm going to assume that I can follow my meter's advice and just get the pH where it's supposed to be regardless of the road I need to get there.I buy these small 7-8oz bottles of the calibration solutions and they're sealed tight and in my cool, dark, dry basement. Not sure of their age but if they're older than 3 months, it's not by much because I calibrate A LOT. Also, these solutions are a little expensive. $8 or $9 each plus shipping if I order them. I think there may have been something to the fact that I left the solutions in the glass. I just put my meter into the 4.0 and it read 3.7 and it read the 7.0 off a little bit too. Then I used new solution, calibrated and it read the 4.0 and the 7.0 correct. Hey, I'm the first person that would believe that human error is a part of my odyssey here, no question. With some of this stuff, I'm in deeper water than I would care to admit. This pilsner will be a real test so I will keep everyone posted. I do have a few other pale beers coming up (a Kolsch is one) and I will have to see how those go.

[Big Nake]

So with some of this craziness behind me, I have been looking at my specific steps.  I add salts and acid to the mash to get the right mash pH but when I add my sparge water to my MT, I usually do not add anything until I check the pH and if it seems too high, I add acid.  But... this could be an issue whether I use tap water or distilled, right?  My tap water has a pH of 6.6 and distilled is 7.0 (generally).  The fact that I did not acidify my sparge water was probably a mistake. If I used 100% distilled (which I don't, but if I did...) the sparge water would be 7.0.  If it was 50/50, the sparge water would be 6.8.  All tap would be 6.6.  If I added that water to a pale grain bill, wouldn't the pH of my sparge be over 6?  Do any of the salts added to the mash still have an impact on what happens an hour later when I sparge?  Am I sniffing around the right fire hydrant here?  If it was a beer with more dark grains, I suppose the pH of the sparge might lower naturally.  I need to be adding at least 1 to 1½ ml of lactic acid to my sparge water it seems.  What am I missing?

Edited by KenLenard, 09 March 2014 - 07:57 PM.

[neddles]

If I added that water to a pale grain bill, wouldn't the pH of my sparge be over 6?  

I think it depends on the water composition and the remaining buffering capacity of the grains. You batch sparge right Ken? When you batch sparge you just dump all the sparge water into the grains give a stir and run off again, no? (Forgive my ignorance here,  I BIAB, so sparging is not in my wheelhouse) So do you add the water, stir and then check pH before running off or something else?

[Brauer]

Distilled water at pH 7 in the sparge should come closer to your mash pH than your tap water would at pH 6.6. Alkalinity is more important than pH.  The salts added into the mash will continue to affect the pH, since ~25% of them still remain in the grainbed after the first runnings and they've already done much of their work to set pH. The more sparge water you use, the more their effect will be overcome by the alkalinity of the sparge water.