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Possible kink in my process...


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#41 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 05:48 AM

Btw... I meant to include the temp in there too because we already discussed that. If it's an absolute certainty that high temp is a culprit too, that would come into play. 

I think it depends on the water composition and the remaining buffering capacity of the grains. You batch sparge right Ken? When you batch sparge you just dump all the sparge water into the grains give a stir and run off again, no? (Forgive my ignorance here,  I BIAB, so sparging is not in my wheelhouse) So do you add the water, stir and then check pH before running off or something else?

Yes, heat the water, dump it into the MT with the already-used-once grains, stir, take a sample for the pH and get the results of that reading 10 mins later. I have approached 6 or been over 6 before. 

Distilled water at pH 7 in the sparge should come closer to your mash pH than your tap water would at pH 6.6. Alkalinity is more important than pH.  The salts added into the mash will continue to affect the pH, since ~25% of them still remain in the grainbed after the first runnings and they've already done much of their work to set pH. The more sparge water you use, the more their effect will be overcome by the alkalinity of the sparge water.

I almost always use 4 gallons of water to mash and another 4 gallons to sparge. Most of my recipes are in the same zip code for OG so it's not worth adjusting... it's still in a good grain-to-water ratio. Brauer, I hear you and I thought about that too... my tap water has lower pH but has more alkalinity. The distilled has no alkalinity but it's at pH of 7. Also, I add nothing to the sparge in terms of salts. I only add acid if the pH appears to be too high... but could it be too late by that time?So the question is... if the sparge sat for 10 minutes and the pH was over 6.0 at a temp of 160-170° and the water was anywhere from 25% distilled to 75% distilled... could that cause a tannin, harsh flavor and/or clarity problem? I'm thinking that acidifying the sparge water and getting it to 5.5 or something just sounds like good practice here. Thank again gang.

Edited by KenLenard, 10 March 2014 - 05:50 AM.


#42 positiveContact

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 06:08 AM

the commonly recited temp for tannin extraction is 170F.  you could be just over it i guess.



#43 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 06:54 AM

the commonly recited temp for tannin extraction is 170F.  you could be just over it i guess.

I thought that 175° was often mentioned but I would be splitting hairs there. What I don't get is that I occasionally get this harsh, stinging flavor in the finish of my beers but it's always my pale beers. I have never experienced this on beers with any amount of color. That right there suggests a pH issue because darker beers can protect themselves (to a point) against high pH/tannin extraction where pale beers cannot. Remember too that we're talking about my grains and sparge water sitting together for a maximum of 10-15 minutes (approx... not sure how long it takes to recirc and drain but somewhere in that area). Also, it doesn't happen on EVERY pale beer but enough of them.

#44 positiveContact

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 07:10 AM

I thought that 175° was often mentioned but I would be splitting hairs there. What I don't get is that I occasionally get this harsh, stinging flavor in the finish of my beers but it's always my pale beers. I have never experienced this on beers with any amount of color. That right there suggests a pH issue because darker beers can protect themselves (to a point) against high pH/tannin extraction where pale beers cannot. Remember too that we're talking about my grains and sparge water sitting together for a maximum of 10-15 minutes (approx... not sure how long it takes to recirc and drain but somewhere in that area). Also, it doesn't happen on EVERY pale beer but enough of them.

 

i think at this point you need an independent 3rd party taster.  :lol:



#45 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 08:00 AM

i think at this point you need an independent 3rd party taster.  :lol:

Well, I have a blonde ale carbing right now and when I tasted the flat, warm sample, it seemed like it MIGHT have a touch of this. If so, I suppose I could bottles some up and send it to you, Brauer and Ettels and you guys can triangulate over the cause of it.

#46 positiveContact

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 08:09 AM

Well, I have a blonde ale carbing right now and when I tasted the flat, warm sample, it seemed like it MIGHT have a touch of this. If so, I suppose I could bottles some up and send it to you, Brauer and Ettels and you guys can triangulate over the cause of it.

 

if you want to send me stuff I'd be happy to check it out.  if you can get it to me before this weekend i could have JK and drez check it out as well.



#47 HVB

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 08:35 AM

if you want to send me stuff I'd be happy to check it out.  if you can get it to me before this weekend i could have JK and drez check it out as well.

Send it .. Send it .. Send it



#48 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:23 AM

Send it .. Send it .. Send it

But if I send it, it would be because it's not good. Maybe I could send a bottle of some MLPA that just got carbed up... came out nicely.

#49 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:51 AM

Ken, I have been brewing MLPA since I started brewing. I would love to try a sample of it. I've been having problems with it lately and I would like to have something to compare it to. Think a trade could be in order?



#50 HVB

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 09:51 AM

But if I send it, it would be because it's not good. Maybe I could send a bottle of some MLPA that just got carbed up... came out nicely.

You know, sometimes bad beer is better at a tasting than good beer.  It gives you something to talk about and try to figure out.  That is why I was invited, to bring the bad beer!

 

But, some MLPA would be nice too.  The one beer that I have tried to brew 3 times and each time was met with some strange event. 



#51 3rd party JKor

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:09 AM

I refuse to believe there is a kink in Ken Lenard's process.  No, no, no.  I don't believe it.



#52 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 11:48 AM

I refuse to believe there is a kink in Ken Lenard's process.  No, no, no.  I don't believe it.

Well I wish I could say I was making it up but I'm not. Only on pale beers, not all pale beers and usually the same issue... harsh, unsmooth finish and some cloudiness. It has to be a mash, sparge or kettle pH issue.

#53 3rd party JKor

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:13 PM

If you have a kink in your process, my process is Marv Albert's bedroom.

 

 

Also, send the beer.  You're getting a free evaluation, don't fight it!

 

I should tell you ahead of time my commentary is going to be 'Yup, you're right, the finish does seem a bit harsh.  *glug* *glug* *glug*.' :P



#54 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:22 PM

I appreciate that.So this point doesn't get lost, I want anyone and everyone with an opinion to weigh in on this thought...

If I were making a pale beer and poured my 4 gallons of sparge water into the MT with no additions and the pH of that sparge water was between 6.6 and 7.0 and the water had no additions made to it and it was 160° and then my sparge sat for 10-15 minutes until it was drained... would that cause a tannin, harsh flavor, haze issue?

I'm kind of hoping that someone will come along and either say, "Yes, absolutely" (which would be a relief) or "No, can't happen that way and the change of the overall sparge being over 6.0 at that point is EXTREMELY remote" (which would send me back to the drawing board). I won't be able to sample this beer until Tuesday afternoon and I would have to get it to the UPS place quick or otherwise I would miss this THE GUV get-together.

#55 3rd party JKor

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 01:31 PM

I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have been covered, but...

 

This is batch sparge?

 

If so, I would say it would be EXTREMELY unlikely to have tannin extraction in that situation.

 

Tannin extraction is pH and temperature related.  The 6.0 number that people often mention is assuming the entire mash gets above 170.  In your case you had a mash that was at ~150° (?) and added a bunch of 160° degree water to it.  The whole grain bed was probably not more than 155 during the rest.  In that case, even a pH above 6.0 wouldn't have extracted tannins.  Furthermore, in a batch sparge is much more difficult to end up with a pH over 6, because you have much more concentrated wort in the MLT when you add the water.  When fly sparging, by the end of the sparge the runoff concentration is extremely low, so there is that opportunity for the pH to creep up.



#56 positiveContact

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:00 PM

I haven't read the whole thread, so this may have been covered, but...

 

This is batch sparge?

 

If so, I would say it would be EXTREMELY unlikely to have tannin extraction in that situation.

 

Tannin extraction is pH and temperature related.  The 6.0 number that people often mention is assuming the entire mash gets above 170.  In your case you had a mash that was at ~150° (?) and added a bunch of 160° degree water to it.  The whole grain bed was probably not more than 155 during the rest.  In that case, even a pH above 6.0 wouldn't have extracted tannins.  Furthermore, in a batch sparge is much more difficult to end up with a pH over 6, because you have much more concentrated wort in the MLT when you add the water.  When fly sparging, by the end of the sparge the runoff concentration is extremely low, so there is that opportunity for the pH to creep up.

 

i got you covered!  more or less anyway.  i didn't actually say the thing about batch sparging but i was thinking it!

 

last I checked tannin extraction required 3 things (and by this I mean all 3 things):

 

1) high pH

2) high temperature

3) time

 

with batch sparging the contact time is pretty minimal.  you can easily avoid high temperature (above 170F or whatever it is).

 

so even if your pH is a little high in the sparge you might still be A-OK.



#57 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:10 PM

Okay so if I added 4 gallons of water that was between 6.6 and 7.0 to a pale grain bill and I added no salts or acids, would anyone care to guess what the pH of that sparge would be? I have taken the pH of my sparge and as long as my meter is not wrong (very questionable), I have seen it creep up to and over 6.0. Now if we're absolutely, positively certain that we must have high pH plus temperatures over 175° or whatever... then I'm sniffing around the wrong fire hydrant. But if that's the case, why do I occasionally get this on my pale beers? The offending beers are hazy, rough and have a wickedly sharp finish. Damn, if it's not this sparge issue, I have no idea where the problem is.

Edited by KenLenard, 10 March 2014 - 02:10 PM.


#58 neddles

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:26 PM

Well, I have a blonde ale carbing right now and when I tasted the flat, warm sample, it seemed like it MIGHT have a touch of this. If so, I suppose I could bottles some up and send it to you, Brauer and Ettels and you guys can triangulate over the cause of it.

I'd be more than willing to taste your beer for you. Just understand I am nothing more than a guy who likes to drink good beer. I have have zero official qualifications as a taster. I did, however, at one time have significant tannin extraction and high pH mashed pale beers that came out harsh/soapy and grainy/husky, so there is that.

 

I appreciate that.So this point doesn't get lost, I want anyone and everyone with an opinion to weigh in on this thought...

 

Quote

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]If I were making a pale beer and poured my 4 gallons of sparge water into the MT with no additions and the pH of that sparge water was between 6.6 and 7.0 and the water had no additions made to it and it was 160° and then my sparge sat for 10-15 minutes until it was drained... would that cause a tannin, harsh flavor, haze issue?[/color]

 

I'm kind of hoping that someone will come along and either say, "Yes, absolutely" (which would be a relief) or "No, can't happen that way and the change of the overall sparge being over 6.0 at that point is EXTREMELY remote" (which would send me back to the drawing board). I won't be able to sample this beer until Tuesday afternoon and I would have to get it to the UPS place quick or otherwise I would miss this THE GUV get-together.

Sorry, I don't know the answer to what you are asking. But I have heard and read more than once, I believe it was Palmer and others, that if you sparge with 100% deionized water you won't have to worry about the pH of the sparge because the DI water has zero buffering capacity. AJ and Martin point out in this thread https://www.homebrew...ater-ph-244320/ about it that you can sparge with DI water down to 2-3 deg Plato without pH concerns. I know you don't want to buy more DI water than you have to but this would simplify the process and alleviate some concerns wouldn't it?

 

One way to make buying DI water cheaper would be to buy it in bulk. I take a 6 gallon better bottle to the grocery and fill it there for $2.95. (Actual price is $2.95/5 gallons but every time I tell the checkers it is 6 gallons they just enter the code for 5 gallons since they have no 6 gallon code) I don't know if you can get that kind of pricing or any bulk discount but it might be worth checking around various places. I would think there would be several places near you in the burbs. That sell RO from the machine. Also, I know you had some RO water that, with further testing, turned out to not be too deionized. With a TDS meter you could easily check the local RO to see if it is legit before buying. Again, AJ and Martin about what to look for when testing https://www.homebrew...uch-use-355097/

 

And here is a cheap and well reviewed meter. https://www.amazon.c...words=TDS meter

 

ETA: Forgot you were batch sparging so the sparge runnings gravity thing may or may not be relevant.


Edited by ettels4, 10 March 2014 - 02:28 PM.


#59 3rd party JKor

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:28 PM

Have you matched up high sparge pH's with this occurrence?  I often check the pH of my final runnings and I've never seen it get near 6.  pH meters are notoriously finicky instruments.  Do you also have strips?



#60 Big Nake

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Posted 10 March 2014 - 02:34 PM

I'd be more than willing to taste your beer for you. Just understand I am nothing more than a guy who likes to drink good beer. I have have zero official qualifications as a taster. I did, however, at one time have significant tannin extraction and high pH mashed pale beers that came out harsh/soapy and grainy/husky, so there is that. Sorry, I don't know the answer to what you are asking. But I have heard and read more than once, I believe it was Palmer and others, that if you sparge with 100% deionized water you won't have to worry about the pH of the sparge because the DI water has zero buffering capacity. AJ and Martin point out in this thread https://www.homebrew...ater-ph-244320/ about it that you can sparge with DI water down to 2-3 deg Plato without pH concerns. I know you don't want to buy more DI water than you have to but this would simplify the process and alleviate some concerns wouldn't it? One way to make buying DI water cheaper would be to buy it in bulk. I take a 6 gallon better bottle to the grocery and fill it there for $2.95. (Actual price is $2.95/5 gallons but every time I tell the checkers it is 6 gallons they just enter the code for 5 gallons since they have no 6 gallon code) I don't know if you can get that kind of pricing or any bulk discount but it might be worth checking around various places. I would think there would be several places near you in the burbs. That sell RO from the machine. Also, I know you had some RO water that, with further testing, turned out to not be too deionized. With a TDS meter you could easily check the local RO to see if it is legit before buying. Again, AJ and Martin about what to look for when testing https://www.homebrew...uch-use-355097/ And here is a cheap and well reviewed meter. https://www.amazon.c...words=TDS meter ETA: Forgot you were batch sparging so the sparge runnings gravity thing may or may not be relevant.

So when you had these pale beers that were harsh, grainy, husky, what was the issue? This sounds exactly like what I'm experiencing.


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