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Bittering when using a whirlpool addition


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#1 HVB

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 11:51 AM

When I do hoppy beers I tend to do a small bittering charge at 90/60 minutes, typically about 7grams of some high alpha hop like Apollo. I will then add the majority of my hops with 15 minutes left and have a large addition that I throw in at the end and let sit while I whirlpool the brew kettle.  The whirlpool is typically 30 minutes, 15 spinning and 15 to settle before I start to chill.  Not that the small amount of bittering hops really adds that much time or money to the batch but I am wondering if anyone has eliminated that and just add the late hops.  I plan to give this a try in a couple of weeks with a Simcoe, Mosaic, Amarillo and Citra APA.  What say the board!

 

 



#2 Steve Urquell

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:07 PM

I've done it and had beers from others that have done it and find them lacking in the bitterness dept.I build my hop schedule from 0 mins back to the bittering charge. The 60 min is the last addition I add to the recipe calculator just to hit my target IBUs. This works well for me.

#3 neddles

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:09 PM

When I do hoppy beers I tend to do a small bittering charge at 90/60 minutes, typically about 7grams of some high alpha hop like Apollo. I will then add the majority of my hops with 15 minutes left and have a large addition that I throw in at the end and let sit while I whirlpool the brew kettle.  The whirlpool is typically 30 minutes, 15 spinning and 15 to settle before I start to chill.  Not that the small amount of bittering hops really adds that much time or money to the batch but I am wondering if anyone has eliminated that and just add the late hops.  I plan to give this a try in a couple of weeks with a Simcoe, Mosaic, Amarillo and Citra APA.  What say the board!

I think what you are describing is the classic hop bursting technique is it not?

 

My tendency has been to avoid boiling any more plant material than is necessary and it has been working wonderfully. Meaning, I get my IBU's at 60 min. and then add a significant addition to the whirlpool @160-165ish to avoid as much isomerization as possible. Since I started brewing a couple years ago I have had two beers that had an off flavor that I am at a loss to describe. Both were hoppy beers that had a lot of hops boiled in them. Now I cannot say that too many boiled hops was the issue for sure but it is the only common thread between the two. On those two beers I reviewed my process thoroughly and can't come up with another reason for the flavor. That flavor didn't taste like any of the descriptions of common off-flavors. The closest thing I can compare it to was balsam of myrrh. 

 

I'm getting to far off but anyways it is related I suppose to your suggested technique. Some will disagree, and I'd like to hear what they say about it, but my recent experience is that boiling doesn't do anything good for flavor.(Excepting FWH, as I don't have the experience to say one way or another on that one.)


Edited by ettels4, 08 April 2014 - 12:10 PM.


#4 johnpreuss

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:09 PM

I've done it and had beers from others that have done it and find them lacking in the bitterness dept.I build my hop schedule from 0 mins back to the bittering charge. The 60 min is the last addition I add to the recipe calculator just to hit my target IBUs. This works well for me.

 

I like this.  I have been afraid the beer would be lacking as well.



#5 HVB

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:15 PM

I think what you are describing is the classic hop bursting technique is it not?

 

 

It may be, it has been so longs since I looked at a classic hop burst recipe.  I need to go back and look at CJ's old threads.

 

 

I've done it and had beers from others that have done it and find them lacking in the bitterness dept.I build my hop schedule from 0 mins back to the bittering charge. The 60 min is the last addition I add to the recipe calculator just to hit my target IBUs. This works well for me.

the lack of bitterness is one of my concerns, I guess only one way to really find out.  I like the idea of building form 0 out but the IBU calculations do such a poor job with late additions and whirlpool additions I never really know what I am going to get for IBU's.  I figure that the 15 minutes addition, simcoe in this case, will be above 170 for at least 45 minutes.  With a healthy addition of 1 oz of more I assume that will pull out a good amount of IBU's



#6 neddles

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:25 PM

...but my recent experience is that boiling doesn't do anything good for flavor.

 

I should clarify that I meant that in application to the hop forward styles like the recipe you proposed. I like the hops in my hop forward beers to be clear and bright and very aromatic.

 

 

It may be, it has been so longs since I looked at a classic hop burst recipe.  I need to go back and look at CJ's old threads.

 

 

the lack of bitterness is one of my concerns, I guess only one way to really find out.  I like the idea of building form 0 out but the IBU calculations do such a poor job with late additions and whirlpool additions I never really know what I am going to get for IBU's.  I figure that the 15 minutes addition, simcoe in this case, will be above 170 for at least 45 minutes.  With a healthy addition of 1 oz of more I assume that will pull out a good amount of IBU's

So I guess what I am saying is that you would lose a ton of the aromatic oils/flavor from the simcoe after sitting 45min. at that temp wouldn't you? Would it not be similar in flavor to a 45 minute boil addition with a quick chill/no whirlpool? Obviously the 45min. addition would provide more IBU's though.



#7 Steve Urquell

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:26 PM

the lack of bitterness is one of my concerns, I guess only one way to really find out.  I like the idea of building form 0 out but the IBU calculations do such a poor job with late additions and whirlpool additions I never really know what I am going to get for IBU's.  I figure that the 15 minutes addition, simcoe in this case, will be above 170 for at least 45 minutes.  With a healthy addition of 1 oz of more I assume that will pull out a good amount of IBU's

I've had pretty good luck with the free Brewtoad and Beer Calculus programs set for Tinseth. I typically have 5+ ozs added from 15 mins to 0 with a healthy 175F whirlpool addition on hoppy beers and haven't had any that surprised me with the bitterness perception.Gypsum has a profound effect on bitterness perception. I've found it adds harshness to the bittering (not saying that in a derogatory manner) and I use it to that effect. I add 80-100ppm SO4 for APAs and no more that 180ppm for IPAs, with a decreasing scale from 50ppm to 0ppm on most other beers depending on the beer style.For my tastebuds, adding more makes the gypsum flavor stand out and dominate the beer and gives it a chalky, astringent mouthfeel.

Edited by chils, 08 April 2014 - 12:27 PM.


#8 HVB

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:31 PM

I've had pretty good luck with the free Brewtoad and Beer Calculus programs set for Tinseth. I typically have 5+ ozs added from 15 mins to 0 with a healthy 175F whirlpool addition on hoppy beers and haven't had any that surprised me with the bitterness perception.Gypsum has a profound effect on bitterness perception. I've found it adds harshness to the bittering (not saying that in a derogatory manner) and I use it to that effect. I add 80-100ppm SO4 for APAs and no more that 180ppm for IPAs, with a decreasing scale from 50ppm to 0ppm on most other beers depending on the beer style.For my tastebuds, adding more makes the gypsum flavor stand out and dominate the beer and gives it a chalky, astringent mouthfeel.

 

In the same boat there for hop additions.  I find your gypsum observations intresting.

 

 

 

So I guess what I am saying is that you would lose a ton of the aromatic oils/flavor from the simcoe after sitting 45min. at that temp wouldn't you? Would it not be similar in flavor to a 45 minute boil addition with a quick chill/no whirlpool? Obviously the 45min. addition would provide more IBU's though.

 

I have not noticed loosing any aromatics from a beer that has a 15minute addition and a long whirlpool.  Not that it may not be happening and the other hops are covering up any loss.



#9 Big Nake

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 12:49 PM

I see a lot of beers that have less 'bitterness' but more 'hopiness'. If I make a beer where there are more hops added late in the boil, I'm more likely to add a smaller bittering addition but I always add one... even if it's small. Ettels, there was talk that Moon Man is not hopped early but only late. Not sure on this but the hopiness in the flavor and aroma are there but then the finish is really smooth as if there are little-to-no bittering hops. Occasionally I'll still have a pale ale that seems to have a pretty good bittering charge and it kind of surprises me like, Wow, that's hoppy but it's also really bitter! Not that there's anything wrong with it.

#10 neddles

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:30 PM

I see a lot of beers that have less 'bitterness' but more 'hopiness'. If I make a beer where there are more hops added late in the boil, I'm more likely to add a smaller bittering addition but I always add one... even if it's small. Ettels, there was talk that Moon Man is not hopped early but only late. Not sure on this but the hopiness in the flavor and aroma are there but then the finish is really smooth as if there are little-to-no bittering hops. Occasionally I'll still have a pale ale that seems to have a pretty good bittering charge and it kind of surprises me like, Wow, that's hoppy but it's also really bitter! Not that there's anything wrong with it.

I don't know what he does with Moon Man, I just know I like it. :D

 

Hop flavor and bitterness seem to play off each other in funny ways and probably differently in different people. My wife does not like hop flavor, regardless of variety, but she's more tolerant of the noble types. If I give her a APA with 25-30 IBU and lots of hop flavor she perceives it as very bitter, can't drink it. But I can give her a very dry saison @40 IBU and she doesn't see it as bitter at all.

 

On the sulfate levels, I have found more of a change in the perception of the hop flavor than the bitterness as I add more sulfate. Flavors seem brighter/sharper and the finish drier. I haven't noticed much change in the quality of the bitterness with increased sulfate, but that's just me. Now, as for elevated pH and bitterness quality….



#11 Big Nake

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 01:55 PM

I don't know what he does with Moon Man, I just know I like it. :D Hop flavor and bitterness seem to play off each other in funny ways and probably differently in different people. My wife does not like hop flavor, regardless of variety, but she's more tolerant of the noble types. If I give her a APA with 25-30 IBU and lots of hop flavor she perceives it as very bitter, can't drink it. But I can give her a very dry saison @40 IBU and she doesn't see it as bitter at all. On the sulfate levels, I have found more of a change in the perception of the hop flavor than the bitterness as I add more sulfate. Flavors seem brighter/sharper and the finish drier. I haven't noticed much change in the quality of the bitterness with increased sulfate, but that's just me. Now, as for elevated pH and bitterness quality….

I am seeing that just the slightest increase in sulfate levels in my beers are pretty noticeable to me. On my last batch of MLPA, I increased the sulfate level so that it was just even (or close) to the chloride level... the ratio was balanced. I also used an ounce of Mt. Hood at 5.7% where it might ordinarily be somewhere around 5.2%. These are small and very modest increases but this batch of MLPA tastes like it has a lot more hops in it than just a 60-minute addition of Mt. Hood. It's little things like these water mods or pH levels that make me think that I'll always be a student of this hobby. :D

#12 neddles

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:03 PM

I am seeing that just the slightest increase in sulfate levels in my beers are pretty noticeable to me. On my last batch of MLPA, I increased the sulfate level so that it was just even (or close) to the chloride level... the ratio was balanced. I also used an ounce of Mt. Hood at 5.7% where it might ordinarily be somewhere around 5.2%. These are small and very modest increases but this batch of MLPA tastes like it has a lot more hops in it than just a 60-minute addition of Mt. Hood. It's little things like these water mods or pH levels that make me think that I'll always be a student of this hobby. :D

Honestly you seem to have a very refined palate, even more so since you are so familiar with some of your recipes. So it doesn't surprise me that you can detect subtle changes like this. It's also the reason I want to send you a bottle of my Helles when it's done so you can pick it apart and tell me what you find. (should you accept this responsibility of course)



#13 Big Nake

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 02:10 PM

Honestly you seem to have a very refined palate, even more so since you are so familiar with some of your recipes. So it doesn't surprise me that you can detect subtle changes like this. It's also the reason I want to send you a bottle of my Helles when it's done so you can pick it apart and tell me what you find. (should you accept this responsibility of course)

Responsibility accepted! I'll be happy to send some stuff your way as well. Cheers.

#14 djinkc

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 03:40 PM

When I do hoppy beers I tend to do a small bittering charge at 90/60 minutes, typically about 7grams of some high alpha hop like Apollo. I will then add the majority of my hops with 15 minutes left and have a large addition that I throw in at the end and let sit while I whirlpool the brew kettle.  The whirlpool is typically 30 minutes, 15 spinning and 15 to settle before I start to chill.  Not that the small amount of bittering hops really adds that much time or money to the batch but I am wondering if anyone has eliminated that and just add the late hops.  I plan to give this a try in a couple of weeks with a Simcoe, Mosaic, Amarillo and Citra APA.  What say the board!

 

I've gone from a bit too much for a 60 minute addition, to none and back to maybe 1/2 oz of 14 AA Magnum for 10 gallons.  This is with mostly everthing else at 15 minutes and after with a 175df whirlpool addition.  I think that first bittering charge gives me something I like.  All late was pleasant but for me a bit lacking.



#15 BlKtRe

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:43 PM

I'm with Chiles. I don't get enough bittering. I never got enough back when CJ was pushing the technique. I've gone back to hop bursting for a gut check on occasion. I prefer around 32 IBU from the 60 minute addition. Slam the back end including a large 175* whirlpool or hop back. German Magnum is my go to. No sense in having various high alpha hops sitting around.

#16 djinkc

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 04:52 PM

I'm with Chiles. I don't get enough bittering. I never got enough back when CJ was pushing the technique. I've gone back to hop bursting for a gut check on occasion. I prefer around 32 IBU from the 60 minute addition. Slam the back end including a large 175* whirlpool or hop back. German Magnum is my go to. No sense in having various high alpha hops sitting around.

 

Without checking I think I've been about 5 IBUs less for the first addition.  Love those Gr. Magnums though.  And I think it's time to dry hop a few again instead of the 175 addition.  Had some that I was happy with, some that just didn't met expectations.



#17 BlKtRe

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:00 PM

Without checking I think I've been about 5 IBUs less for the first addition. Love those Gr. Magnums though. And I think it's time to dry hop a few again instead of the 175 addition. Had some that I was happy with, some that just didn't met expectations.

Let me add that my 32 IBU is a 1.060 80 total IBU's. The rest of the IBU's come from hop bursting. Then the whirlpool or hop back. So there are lots of hops in there. Of course that 60 addition is managed as bu:gu changes.

#18 Steve Urquell

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:04 PM

And I think it's time to dry hop a few again instead of the 175 addition.

It was never meant to replace dry hopping, just to add resiny mouthfeel and flavor. It works best with dry hopping--175F addition for flavor and resin, dry hop for aroma. Here's where I let you guys in on it.https://www.brews-br...esiny mouthfeel

#19 djinkc

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:15 PM

It was never meant to replace dry hopping, just to add resiny mouthfeel and flavor. It works best with dry hopping--175F addition for flavor and resin, dry hop for aroma. Here's where I let you guys in on it.https://www.brews-br...esiny mouthfeel

 

Nice!  I remember that one.  For me it's just easier than messing with nylons in the keg and possible contamination.  And of course, like all things, I'm coming back to wanting every little thing I can wring out of hops in my beer.  Guess I need to brew higher gravities (which the last few have been) to give me a better chance of no problems.



#20 Steve Urquell

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Posted 08 April 2014 - 05:22 PM

Nice!  I remember that one.  For me it's just easier than messing with nylons in the keg and possible contamination.  And of course, like all things, I'm coming back to wanting every little thing I can wring out of hops in my beer.  Guess I need to brew higher gravities (which the last few have been) to give me a better chance of no problems.

I'm with you 100% I hate dry hopping due to having to deal with the PITA racking and mess in the beer. I wonder if anyone has any good definitive data on adding French pressed hop tea vs dry hopping?


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