65 replies to this topic

[matt6150]

What about FWH? Anybody still doing that? So much talk about the late and whirlpool additions there is not much mention of FWH anymore.

[Steve Urquell]

What about FWH? Anybody still doing that? So much talk about the late and whirlpool additions there is not much mention of FWH anymore.

I FWH all my beers just cause I can throw it in the pot and not have to think about it. I calculate it as a 60min addition.As far as adding anything other than the IBUs I want (ie: flavor) IMHO, it doesn't.This comes after FWHing American light and standard lagers with Summit and CTZ multi-times and not noticing any hop character from it. Just my opinion though.

[neddles]

For the additions you guys make from 15 to 0 min. (other than IBUs) what do you feel like you are getting that you can't get in the whirlpool? I know boiling your hops is how it's always been done but it seems like you are just blowing a bunch of aromatics and flavor right out your kettle.

[BlKtRe]

I've slowly stopped using FWH. I remember brewers saying it replaced the 20 addition for flavor. I got to the point I'd FWH and do a 20. Now I just skip it totally. I pretty much consider the 15-0 more flavor and the whirlpool or hop back as aromatics.

[Steve Urquell]

For the additions you guys make from 15 to 0 min. (other than IBUs) what do you feel like you are getting that you can't get in the whirlpool? I know boiling your hops is how it's always been done but it seems like you are just blowing a bunch of aromatics and flavor right out your kettle.

Frankly, I've been hesitant to do a 60min bittering/ 175F addition only beer. While I know that it should be just fine and give all the hop character I'd want to the beer, I just haven't wanted to risk being unsatisfied with a whole batch for the sake of saving 1-2ozs of hops. BTW, most of my beers are 60/15/175F beers. I did give up the 30 min additions except on my BoPils recipe which has taken me 5 years to develop (and I wouldn't change it cause it's sofa king good)

[Brauer]

I FWH most everything that gets a bittering addition.  On my system, it improves the flavor contribution from the bittering addition in beers that get little to no late additions. I've made Alts, Dunkels, and Milds with only a FWH addition that had a pleasant mild, well integrated hop flavor.  I wouldn't consider the flavor to have the same character as a 5, 10 or even 15 minute addition, though.

 

I also like the soft bittering I get from only late additions.  I can appreciate a good IPA and I've had a lot of the current best ones (Heady, Zombie, Hill Farmstead), even though I've become a bit bored with the style over the last couple years and rarely want more than one, anymore.  My impression of a lot of the hop-forward IPAs is that the flavor is good, but their bitterness is masking some of the hop flavor.  Less bitterness would be in improvement, IMO.

[BlKtRe]

I FWH most everything that gets a bittering addition.  On my system, it improves the flavor contribution from the bittering addition in beers that get little to no late additions. I've made Alts, Dunkels, and Milds with only a FWH addition that had a pleasant mild, well integrated hop flavor.  I wouldn't consider the flavor to have the same character as a 5, 10 or even 15 minute addition, though.

 

I also like the soft bittering I get from only late additions.  I can appreciate a good IPA and I've had a lot of the current best ones (Heady, Zombie, Hill Farmstead), even though I've become a bit bored with the style over the last couple years and rarely want more than one, anymore.  My impression of a lot of the hop-forward IPAs is that the flavor is good, but their bitterness is masking some of the hop flavor.  Less bitterness would be in improvement, IMO.

 

The evolution of IpA has put the bitterness:hop flavor finally on a even keel for me. The days of the Bitter Bastard and to sweet of IIpA days are finally over. Then again IpA is my preferred style and I drink lots of them. 

[HVB]

The evolution of IpA has put the bitterness:hop flavor finally on a even keel for me. The days of the Bitter Bastard and to sweet of IIpA days are finally over. Then again IpA is my preferred style and I drink lots of them. 

 

My feelings too.  Seems most of the beers I brew are all hop focused.

[Big Nake]

I'm curious about some of these IPA recipes where you guys boost the IBUs and also the level of gypsum in the beer. If you get your gypsum level high, are you balancing that with chlorides too or would that defeat the purpose? Also, if the IBUs are high and the sulfates are high, do you mash a little higher to keep the balance or no? I'm envisioning a very dry, biting bitterness with an average mash temp, high IBUs and high sulfates. Although I'm not someone who makes IPAs, I can have a commercial IPA and enjoy it as much as anyone... it would just take me a long time to drain a 5-gallon keg of an IPA because it's not something I would drink a lot of or drink everyday.

[HVB]

I'm curious about some of these IPA recipes where you guys boost the IBUs and also the level of gypsum in the beer. If you get your gypsum level high, are you balancing that with chlorides too or would that defeat the purpose? Also, if the IBUs are high and the sulfates are high, do you mash a little higher to keep the balance or no? I'm envisioning a very dry, biting bitterness with an average mash temp, high IBUs and high sulfates. Although I'm not someone who makes IPAs, I can have a commercial IPA and enjoy it as much as anyone... it would just take me a long time to drain a 5-gallon keg of an IPA because it's not something I would drink a lot of or drink everyday.

While the beers I am brewing I would not consider high on the IBU scale, I am guessing they are under 60, I mash 150 or under most of the time.  I like my hoppy beers dry bit I do not get a biting bitterness in my beers.  My water is typically in this ballpark:

Water

Ca – 120.3ppm

Mg- 3ppm

Na – 19ppm

SO4- 203.7ppm

Cl- 54.5ppm

Bicarb – 68ppm

Edited by drez77, 09 April 2014 - 07:23 AM.

[Steve Urquell]

Ken, prepare for your head to explode...wait for it...THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BALANCING THE CHLORIDE/SULFATE RATIO.This has been debunked. AJ and even Martin, with his water profiles in BNW, has recommended against trying to 'balance" chloride and sulfate.I look at chloride and sulfate like adding salt and pepper to food. If you add a ton of salt to your soup, you're not going to fix it by adding a ton of pepper.

[Big Nake]

Ken, prepare for your head to explode...wait for it...THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BALANCING THE CHLORIDE/SULFATE RATIO.This has been debunked. AJ and even Martin, with his water profiles in BNW, has recommended against trying to 'balance" chloride and sulfate.I look at chloride and sulfate like adding salt and pepper to food. If you add a ton of salt to your soup, you're not going to fix it by adding a ton of pepper.

So you're saying that a beer with 200ppm of sulfate and 0ppm chloride would not be "balanced" if it had 200ppm sulfate and 200ppm chloride? I don't know if I'm just explaining it differently but I can tell when I add more sulfate to a beer and when I add more chlorides to a beer. If you don't refer to that as 'balancing', that's fine but there is absolutely a difference between a beer that leans heavily towards one or the other (chlorides/suflates) and one that has an even number of both.

Edited by KenLenard, 09 April 2014 - 07:33 AM.

[neddles]

While the beers I am brewing I would not consider high on the IBU scale, I am guessing they are under 60, I mash 150 or under most of the time.  I like my hoppy beers dry bit I do not get a biting bitterness in my beers.  My water is typically in this ballpark:

Water

Ca – 120.3ppm

Mg- 3ppm

Na – 19ppm

SO4- 203.7ppm

Cl- 54.5ppm

Bicarb – 68ppm

My comments would reflect pretty much just what drez said. I don't get a biting bitterness from sulfate. Maybe drier, cleaner, more well defined… maybe. Only I mash slightly higher than drez and my SO4 is generally around 250ppm on my recent hop forward brews.

[Steve Urquell]

So you're saying that a beer with 200ppm of sulfate and 0ppm chloride would not be "balanced" if it had 200ppm sulfate and 200ppm chloride? I don't know if I'm just explaining it differently but I can tell when I add more sulfate to a beer and when I add more chlorides to a beer. If you don't refer to that as 'balancing', that's fine but there is absolutely a difference between a beer that leans heavily towards one or the other (chlorides/suflates) and one that has an even number of both.

A beer with 200ppm of SO4 and 200ppm of chloride would just be minerally tasting. I look at chloride and sulfate as ingredients like any other in the beer. Just as I don't add 3lbs of crystal malt and then add 3lbs of RB to balance a beer, neither do I add equal amounts of SO4 and chloride to do the same.As you already know, chloride rounds flavors up to a certain point and then just tastes minerally/salty. Same with sulfate. My taste threshold for SO4 is maxed at 200ppm in very hopy beers. After that, all I taste is sulfate. Chloride and sulfate aren't like acid and bicarb--one doesn't take away the other.I typically don't add more than 90ppm of chloride to any beer. The ones that I add that much to will be malt forward and may (or may not) have a small amount of SO4 to add hop "bite" if that's the hop character I want.If I'm brewing a hop forward beer, I may add a small amount of chloride along with a larger amount of sulfate. The chloride is to accentuate ALL the flavors--hops included, like adding salt to food.Hope this is making sense. Martin and Aj chime in a little bit about SO4/Cl- ratio here: https://www.homebrew...e-ratio-448119/

[Big Nake]

Years ago I heard people start saying that the Cl:SO4 ratio is nothing to lose sleep over and trying to get a 'balance' is not necessary. I agree with that and I have made pale beers with low sulfate and high chloride and the beer came out very nicely... the ratio leaned towards VERY MALTY but the beer was good. Whether you look at chloride and sulfate as an 'attached ratio' where one works in conjunction with the other or you look at them separately, I would conclude that they are important and can't be ignored. My levels of both are low (chloride 21 and sulfate is 27 which is 9x3... expressed as SO4-S) and I am typically adding both CaCl and CaSO4 to every beer I make (because my Ca is only 34) but I add different ratios of both based on the beer. A pale ale is going to get more gypsum and a festbier or a pale-colored beer is going to get more chloride. Going back to what you said in post 31 (THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS BALANCING THE CHLORIDE/SULFATE RATIO)... I either do not agree with that or I'm looking at it in a different way. I like 'balanced' beers where sulfates nor chlorides dominate and I typically try to get the right 'balance' of chlorides and sulfates for a given style so I refer to that as a Cl:SO4 balance that falls in line with my tastebuds.

[Steve Urquell]

It's all about what flavors the different ions add and the amounts you add them in. A beer with 50/50 ppm of Cl-/SO4 will not taste the same as one with 300/300ppm. If it did, then the "ratio" would hold water with me.My eye opener was 2 pils brewed with 0ppm of sulfate and one with 50ppm. Vastly different hop character WRT bitterness. The 30ibu/50ppm SO4 German pils tasted much more bitter than the 40ibu/0ppm BoPils. I could really taste the sulfate in the German when tasting side-by-side but not separately. Ever since those 2 batches, I can pick out the taste of sulfate(or gypsum) in a beer

Edited by chils, 09 April 2014 - 09:36 AM.

[neddles]

It's all about what flavors the different ions add and the amounts you add them in. A beer with 50/50 ppm of Cl-/SO4 will not taste the same as one with 300/300ppm. If it did, then the "ratio" would hold water with me.

I agree. IME the ratio is limited to range of ppm. If you get low enough you won't be able to taste a difference (or, I don't think I would) and if you get high enough it will be all minerals in flavor. And I think you are right in that they act more like individual seasonings than two things that working together in a ratio. I don't think the ratio is useless but it seems it's a bit limited in application. The other thing I would add is that it's pretty hard to make rules about what to do and when with this stuff.  So much is left up to the taster and the brewer. It's just another tool in the box... only more like an x-acto than a hammer. 

[Big Nake]

It's all about what flavors the different ions add and the amounts you add them in. A beer with 50/50 ppm of Cl-/SO4 will not taste the same as one with 300/300ppm. If it did, then the "ratio" would hold water with me.My eye opener was 2 pils brewed with 0ppm of sulfate and one with 50ppm. Vastly different hop character WRT bitterness. The 30ibu/50ppm SO4 German pils tasted much more bitter than the 40ibu/0ppm BoPils. I could really taste the sulfate in the German when tasting side-by-side but not separately. Ever since those 2 batches, I can pick out the taste of sulfate(or gypsum) in a beer

Well, I agree with that. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I could really tell when I amp up the sulfate in some of my beers. I also agree that 50ppm of each and 300ppm of each would be different but they're both 'balanced'. A beer with 300ppm of sulfate and 50ppm of chloride would not be balanced (to me) and would have a more pronounced bitterness or sharpness to it. I also hear you on the salt and pepper but I don't consider sulfate & chloride to be salt and pepper... I consider them to be quite opposite of each other and able to counter each other in a different way that salt & pepper or salt and sugar or whatever. Sounds to me like we're on the same page but expressing things differently. The additions I make to my beers in terms of CaCl and CaSO4 are very modest. It's common for both numbers to be in the 40s or 50s but relatively close to each other. Sometimes on a pale beer the chlorides will be in the 70s or 80s while the sulfates are in the teens. But I am never over 100ppm on any ion that I know of. Years ago I might have put a water schedule together and thought, ZOMG! My Cl:SO4 ratio is out of balance! and I wouldn't do that now but I would have various levels in mind for various styles and remember too that a lot of this comes down to how our water starts out. Someone who likes IPAs but has very soft water to begin with is going to be adding much more to their water, IMO.

Edited by KenLenard, 09 April 2014 - 10:03 AM.

[neddles]

Well, I agree with that. Earlier in this thread I mentioned that I could really tell when I amp up the sulfate in some of my beers. I also agree that 50ppm of each and 300ppm of each would be different but they're both 'balanced'. A beer with 300ppm of sulfate and 50ppm of chloride would not be balanced (to me) and would have a more pronounced bitterness or sharpness to it. I also hear you on the salt and pepper but I don't consider sulfate & chloride to be salt and pepper... I consider them to be quite opposite of each other and able to counter each other in a different way that salt & pepper or salt and sugar or whatever. Sounds to me like we're on the same page but expressing things differently. The additions I make to my beers in terms of CaCl and CaSO4 are very modest. It's common for both numbers to be in the 40s or 50s but relatively close to each other. Sometimes on a pale beer the chlorides will be in the 70s or 80s while the sulfates are in the teens. But I am never over 100ppm on any ion that I know of. Years ago I might have put a water schedule together and thought, ZOMG! My Cl:SO4 ratio is out of balance! and I wouldn't do that now but I would have various levels in mind for various styles and remember too that a lot of this comes down to how our water starts out. Someone who likes IPAs but has very soft water to begin with is going to be adding much more to their water, IMO.

I should add Ken that I suspect you generally utilize mineral levels where the ratio would be be more applicable.

[Big Nake]

I should add Ken that I suspect you generally utilize mineral levels where the ratio would be be more applicable.

Yep, makes sense. The ratio applies more based on the (lower) ppm of the ions. It's actually hard for me to believe the impact that a small amount of sulfate has on 5 gallons of beer. Measuring out something like .5 or .8 grams of gypsum is very small but going from .5 to .8 in a batch has a noticeable flavor impact to me.