65 replies to this topic

[denny]

When I do hoppy beers I tend to do a small bittering charge at 90/60 minutes, typically about 7grams of some high alpha hop like Apollo. I will then add the majority of my hops with 15 minutes left and have a large addition that I throw in at the end and let sit while I whirlpool the brew kettle.  The whirlpool is typically 30 minutes, 15 spinning and 15 to settle before I start to chill.  Not that the small amount of bittering hops really adds that much time or money to the batch but I am wondering if anyone has eliminated that and just add the late hops.  I plan to give this a try in a couple of weeks with a Simcoe, Mosaic, Amarillo and Citra APA.  What say the board!

 

I've done all late hops.  Works well in some beers, not so much on others.  It all depends on the hop character you;re looking for.  All late hops will give you a "softer" bitterness.  That's great for some styles, but for things like AIPA I prefer more of a slap in the face.

[denny]

What about FWH? Anybody still doing that? So much talk about the late and whirlpool additions there is not much mention of FWH anymore.

 

Probably about 85% of my beers are FWH, 60, flameout, and dry hop.

[denny]

I FWH all my beers just cause I can throw it in the pot and not have to think about it. I calculate it as a 60min addition.As far as adding anything other than the IBUs I want (ie: flavor) IMHO, it doesn't.This comes after FWHing American light and standard lagers with Summit and CTZ multi-times and not noticing any hop character from it. Just my opinion though.

 

IMHO, it does! 

[HVB]

Probably about 85% of my beers are FWH, 60, flameout, and dry hop.

So when you do this are you considering the IBU contribution of the FWH similar to that of a 20 minute addition?  I am just trying to get an idea of how you develop the hop bill for a desired IBU range.

[positiveContact]

So when you do this are you considering the IBU contribution of the FWH similar to that of a 20 minute addition?  I am just trying to get an idea of how you develop the hop bill for a desired IBU range.

 

that's what i've always done.  my built-in IBU-o-meter isn't probably good enough to tell.

[Steve Urquell]

IMHO, it does!

A famous home brewer did a blind triangle tasting of FWH vs 60min hopped beers. Here was his take on it:Quote: Denny Conn; When I tasted the beers before the blind tasting, I could clearly discern the differences I’d expected to be there. When I did the blind tasting, it took me 3 tries to pick out the different beer and even then I misidentified which one it was. Only 7 out of 18 tasters correctly identified the different beer, which says to me there may be little difference made by FWH.:quoteDenny, your words sum up my experience with FWHing to a T. When I thought it added something to the beer, it did(in my mind anyway). Only after brewing beers with very strongly flavored hops that should have easily been discernable in the finished product did I realize that (if FWH added any flavor) I couldn't find it.

Edited by chils, 09 April 2014 - 11:26 AM.

[BlKtRe]

A famous home brewer did a blind triangle tasting of FWH vs 60min hopped beers. Here was his take on it:Quote: Denny Conn; When I tasted the beers before the blind tasting, I could clearly discern the differences I’d expected to be there. When I did the blind tasting, it took me 3 tries to pick out the different beer and even then I misidentified which one it was. Only 7 out of 18 tasters correctly identified the different beer, which says to me there may be little difference made by FWH.:quoteDenny, your words sum up my experience with FWHing to a T. When I thought it added something to the beer, it did(in my mind anyway). Only after brewing beers with very strongly flavored hops that should have easily been discernable in the finished product did I realize that (if FWH added any flavor) I couldn't find it.

 

Oh please quote his triangle decoction finding's while you are at it! 

[denny]

So when you do this are you considering the IBU contribution of the FWH similar to that of a 20 minute addition?  I am just trying to get an idea of how you develop the hop bill for a desired IBU range.

 

Yeah, that's what I do.  I know it measures more, but I don't care about that.  I care what it tastes like.

[denny]

A famous home brewer did a blind triangle tasting of FWH vs 60min hopped beers. Here was his take on it:Quote: Denny Conn; When I tasted the beers before the blind tasting, I could clearly discern the differences I’d expected to be there. When I did the blind tasting, it took me 3 tries to pick out the different beer and even then I misidentified which one it was. Only 7 out of 18 tasters correctly identified the different beer, which says to me there may be little difference made by FWH.:quoteDenny, your words sum up my experience with FWHing to a T. When I thought it added something to the beer, it did(in my mind anyway). Only after brewing beers with very strongly flavored hops that should have easily been discernable in the finished product did I realize that (if FWH added any flavor) I couldn't find it.

 

I agree, and when I wrote about it for the book I said that sometimes we do things that defy logic based on perception.  Further testing has lead me to think that it's more noticeable than I did in that test.  But at this point, it's all based on my perception and I intend to keep testing to see if I can reach a definitive conclusion.  For myself.  Every one else should do the same.  Let's face it...this is "kitchen science", with a small "S".  It's subjective.  There is no definitive answer.  We're not trying to find a cure for cancer.  We're each trying to find out how to make the beer we each like best.

Edited by denny, 09 April 2014 - 12:11 PM.

[denny]

Oh please quote his triangle decoction finding's while you are at it! 

 

Yeah, well that one was a lot more definitive.

[BlKtRe]

So when you do this are you considering the IBU contribution of the FWH similar to that of a 20 minute addition?  I am just trying to get an idea of how you develop the hop bill for a desired IBU range.

I never got much out of replacing the 20 with a FWH. Most the time when I was FWH I would also add a 20 too. Seems I got more bitterness using FWH than any hop flavor whatsoever. 

[Steve Urquell]

Oh please quote his triangle decoction finding's while you are at it!

His decoction experiment was only a single decoction and the malt was unspecified. Even then the decocted beers had higher preference and more percieved them as maltier.I have avoided any opinion on decoction because I don't have any repeat brews with decocted vs non-decocted. I will say that my last decocted German lager shows nothing that I would wouldn't have gotten from a multi-rest infusion step mash. Go back and find my posts WRT decoction and you will find no opinion expressed on my part.ETA: That decocted German lager was a repeat brew but used BM pils whereas the former used Weyerman floor malt. The FM non-decocted blew the BM decocted out of the water flavor wise. But that floor malt is some fine malt indeed.

Edited by chils, 09 April 2014 - 11:58 AM.

[denny]

His decoction experiment was only a single decoction and the malt was unspecified. Even then the decocted beers had higher preference and more percieved them as maltier.I have avoided any opinion on decoction because I don't have any repeat brews with decocted vs non-decocted. I will say that my last decocted German lager shows nothing that I would wouldn't have gotten from a multi-rest infusion step mash. Go back and find my posts WRT decoction and you will find no opinion expressed on my part.

 

No, there were single to triple decoctions by 5 different brewers from around the world.  I asked them to brew like they brew.  And keep in mind that if you add together the "no preference" and the "preferred non decocted", it was more than preferred the decocted.  That says to me that the decoction didn't make a beer more people preferred.

[Big Nake]

I'll say this: FWHing has an outstanding aroma to it when you drop those hops into the first runnings. Does that carry over into the finished beer? Is there a 'smoother bitterness' or a bitterness with less of an edge that you could pick up in a glass of beer? Not sure.

[denny]

The experiment I did before had FWH only and 60 min. only.  The next will be FWH only and 20 min. only.

[Steve Urquell]

I would suggest another decoction experiment using undermodified floor malt for the styles decoction was originally used--Continental lagers. Tripel decoction vs single infusion, no recipe variations. That would put it to bed for me.

[denny]

I would suggest another decoction experiment using undermodified floor malt for the styles decoction was originally used--Continental lagers. Tripel decoction vs single infusion, no recipe variations. That would put it to bed for me.

 

That would only be valid for that style, then.  That's not the question I wanted to answer.  In addition, it's nearly impossible to find under modified malt.  Even the Weyermann floor malted has an S/T that puts it into the well modified range.  Can you point me to one that's not?  I'd appreciate the info.

 

And why would undermodified malt be needed?  I could see that if you wanted to do a protein rest, but many people do decoctions without the p rest.  In that case, why would undermodified malt matter?  And if you did use undermodified malt for the decoction, how could you use that same malt for single infusion?

[Steve Urquell]

That would only be valid for that style, then.  That's not the question I wanted to answer.  In addition, it's nearly impossible to find under modified malt.  Even the Weyermann floor malted has an S/T that puts it into the well modified range.  Can you point me to one that's not?  I'd appreciate the info. And why would undermodified malt be needed?  I could see that if you wanted to do a protein rest, but many people do decoctions without the p rest.  In that case, why would undermodified malt matter?  And if you did use undermodified malt for the decoction, how could you use that same malt for single infusion?

Just something I had been musing on for awhile. Why compare decocted beers vs infused using modern malts? Add a protein rest into the infused beer if you like. I like geeking on historic brewing techniques. I dont see the point in brewing styles that were never meant to be decococted in the first place. A hoppy ale would cover up subtle nuances in the beers.If I did single infusion brews all the time I would have gotten bored and given up brewing long ago. I have no horse in the decoction race. Just think a level playing field would be more interesting.

[denny]

The questions I was trying to answer were "does the technique of decoction make a beer that is noticeably beer than the same beer without a decoction?"  Secondarily, "does decoction change the flavor of a beer?"  Third, "does decoction impart any other effects to a beer?".  I brewed a German pils.  There was also an alt, a dunkel, and a Dort.  So, traditional continental styles accounted for 4 out of the 5 beers brewed.

 

AFAIAC, you're doing decoctions for the right reason...because you enjoy the process.  Have you tried a similar experiment with a blind triangle tasting to verify your own perceptions?

[Steve Urquell]

AFAIAC, you're doing decoctions for the right reason...because you enjoy the process.  Have you tried a similar experiment with a blind triangle tasting to verify your own perceptions?

Before we go any further. I'm enjoying this discussion. Dont mistake typed words for antagonism. Much respect.I haven't done any side by sides. I don't have the stamina for that type of thing. I would love to do it though. Unfortunately, I had an umbilical hernia repair surgery done yesterday. No lifting or work for 3 weeks. That's why I'm on here today instead of working.I would love to brew 3 Czech beers to compare decocted vs non. Svetle Lezak, Polotmave Vycepni, and Cerne. Light, amber, and dark. Lots of brewing though. Any takers on this project?