19 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

disregard pH b/c I'm going to fix that with acidulated malt.

 

what levels would you guys shoot for?  i hear munich has a good amount of bicarb but I'm not going that route.

 

amber malty profile in bru'n water has a decent amount of sulfate and chloride and calcium.

 

martin suggests adding just enough CaCL to get your calcium up.  in my case that means 90 ppm of chloride.

 

here is an example of my before and after concentrations doing something like what i think martin would suggest.  I'm mashing in tonight so the window of time for suggestions is short

 

Existing Water Profile

Ca 6

Mg 3

Na 29

Sulfate 14

Chloride 26

Bicarb 27

 

Finished Water Profile

Ca 45

Mg 3

Na 29

Sulfate 21

Chloride 90

Bicarb 27

Edited by TheGuv, 12 April 2014 - 04:20 AM.

[Brauer]

My water is lower in Cl, so I end up with 70 ppm Cl with those same additions and let it go at that.  In your case, I might just go with what you have, but I think I'd cut the CaCl addition back to </=70 ppm Cl and make up the difference with Gypsum. I follow my own council in these matters, though, I don't use Brunwater's profiles, so I have no idea how that would match. That would probably bring your SO4 up around 50 ppm, which seems like an appropriately balanced ratio for this style.

[neddles]

Were it mine I would do just like you have planned or even dial back the CaCl is smidge. I have used a Ca level of 40ppm several times now with no fermentation/flocculation issues. Before I knew anything about water content I brewed with Ca=9ppm water and had no flocculation issues. pH, on the other hand….

 

Recent post by Martin on Ca etc...

https://www.brews-br...89272&p=1701947

 

Also, I have had better luck predicting pH with 88% lactic acid as opposed to acid malt, YMMV.

[positiveContact]

yeah - this is my first time with acid malt.  i set it up to get a predicted 5.4 pH so if I overshoot slightly i'll be okay.

[positiveContact]

My water is lower in Cl, so I end up with 70 ppm Cl with those same additions and let it go at that.  In your case, I might just go with what you have, but I think I'd cut the CaCl addition back to </=70 ppm Cl and make up the difference with Gypsum. I follow my own council in these matters, though, I don't use Brunwater's profiles, so I have no idea how that would match. That would probably bring your SO4 up around 50 ppm, which seems like an appropriately balanced ratio for this style.

 

that's actually pretty close to how i had it initially and then i thought better of it and cut down the gypsum and upped the CaCl.  i don't use CaCl that often so I'm a little nervous about what it brings.  your estimates were all about right on by the way on where things would end up. 

[Brauer]

that's actually pretty close to how i had it initially and then i thought better of it and cut down the gypsum and upped the CaCl.  i don't use CaCl that often so I'm a little nervous about what it brings.  your estimates were all about right on by the way on where things would end up. 

I wouldn't worry too much about CaCl2 below 100 ppm or even more, unless you were making a beer where you wanted the malt to get out of the way.  You can add quite a bit without it getting weird.  Try adding some to a glass of beer and you'll see it has a subtle effect, often perceived as increasing the malt flavor. I have added CaCl2 to coffee brewing water to make it seem a little richer and sweeter without adding any overt flavor.

[neddles]

Adding a little more sodium is another one I would like to try to enhance malt character. I have gone as high as 50ppm with it and like the results but do not have enough to compare it to. Some in-the-glass experimentation is a good idea.

[mabrungard]

 

Existing Water Profile

Ca 6

Mg 3

Na 29

Sulfate 14

Chloride 26

Bicarb 27

 

 

That existing water is fine for an O'fest. There is little need to add anything since a malt-focused style like that will do best when the water adds little to the flavor. I would just attend to reducing the bicarb as needed to produce a desirable mash and wort pH.  Sorry for the late response. I was judging the Nationals in Chicago yesterday.

[neddles]

That existing water is fine for an O'fest. There is little need to add anything since a malt-focused style like that will do best when the water adds little to the flavor. I would just attend to reducing the bicarb as needed to produce a desirable mash and wort pH.  Sorry for the late response. I was judging the Nationals in Chicago yesterday.

Martin, would you not suggest upping the calcium for good flocculation? Or is that old thinking at this point? 

[positiveContact]

That existing water is fine for an O'fest. There is little need to add anything since a malt-focused style like that will do best when the water adds little to the flavor. I would just attend to reducing the bicarb as needed to produce a desirable mash and wort pH.  Sorry for the late response. I was judging the Nationals in Chicago yesterday.

 

i ended up adding a pretty small amount of gypsum (2.1 g) and CaCl (2.9 g) and then made up the rest of the acidification with a little acid malt.  put me right around 5.4 so that seems good!

Edited by TheGuv, 13 April 2014 - 07:51 AM.

[denny]

Martin, would you not suggest upping the calcium for good flocculation? Or is that old thinking at this point? 

 

Martin has posted recently about research he's doing that seems to show 50 ppm is fine for ales, and as low as 20 ppm may be fine for lagers.

[positiveContact]

Martin has posted recently about research he's doing that seems to show 50 ppm is fine for ales, and as low as 20 ppm may be fine for lagers.

 

no kidding...

 

good to know for the future.

[neddles]

Martin has posted recently about research he's doing that seems to show 50 ppm is fine for ales, and as low as 20 ppm may be fine for lagers.

Any idea what the logic is? My understanding is that an all malt grist will have all the Ca the yeast needs except, maybe, not enough for good flocculation.

[denny]

Any idea what the logic is? My understanding is that an all malt grist will have all the Ca the yeast needs except, maybe, not enough for good flocculation.

 

I've had that it will have plenty of Mg, but I don't think so on the Ca.  But I don't really know for certain.

[neddles]

I've had that it will have plenty of Mg, but I don't think so on the Ca.  But I don't really know for certain.

Read this post from Martin.

https://www.brews-br...89272&p=1701947

 

 

Also heard Palmer and Kaminski on Brewing Network recently state that an all malt wort has all the nutrients yeast needs except zinc.

[mabrungard]

Martin, would you not suggest upping the calcium for good flocculation? Or is that old thinking at this point? 

 

In the case of lagers, flocculation is sort of a moot point. Get the beer cold and let it sit for a month or so and the beer should be fairly clear. The magic of lagering.

 

The story is different for ales though. Then the brewer may be very interested in clearing the beer in days. That is where an elevated calcium content can be useful. There is little need for calcium in brewing water beyond that (well, it is good to have some calcium in the water to help precipitate oxalate out of the wort while in the mash tun).  

[Brauer]

On the other hand, I wouldn't be afraid of adding a little calcium to an Oktoberfest, either. It's got the flavor to hold up to a little mineral backbone. Then you shouldn't need to wait more than a week or so for your lager to clear, depending on the yeast strain.

[positiveContact]

2308 this time.

[denny]

Read this post from Martin.

https://www.brews-br...89272&p=1701947

 

 

Also heard Palmer and Kaminski on Brewing Network recently state that an all malt wort has all the nutrients yeast needs except zinc.

 

Hey, that's great!  Thanks!

[Big Nake]

With some new tools in my toolbox and some 2124 coming up shortly, I am going to make my Therese's Weisn Oktoberfest recipe (5 lbs Pils, 5 lbs Munich 10L, 2 ounces each of Aromatic & CaraMunich, one hop addition of about 6.5 AAU at 60 minutes) with my 100% filtered tap water: Ca: 34, Mg: 12, Na 13, Cl: 21, SO4: 27, Bicarb 138.I would add some CaCl to get Ca to 50ppm and then just use enough lactic acid in the mash to get to 5.2 - 5.3, keep the sparge pH in line and go. As Martin has said, the acid will neutralize the bicarb and I shouldn't require so much acid that there would be a taste impact.