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Can I make a pale beer with my 100% filtered tap water?


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#1 Big Nake

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:29 PM

If I use 100% of my filtered tap water (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27, Bicarb 138) in a pale beer (SRM 4-5) and add about 4g of CaCl and 4ml of lactic acid (per Bru'N'Water), my mash pH (4 gallons) would be 5.2 and my bicarb would be neutralized. All of my other numbers are low enough and the Ca would be raised by the CaCl. I went from using 7 gallons (out of 8) of distilled water in a batch to using 6 gallons to using 4 gallons. Now I'm wondering if the bicarb-neutralizing angle would allow me to make a beer like this without even worrying about using distilled water. Thoughts?

#2 neddles

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Posted 15 April 2014 - 07:53 PM

Yes. 

 

And with your tap water consistently having the same mineral values I think it's worth doing.



#3 mabrungard

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:41 AM

That is a less mineralized water than I used to brew with in Tallahassee and should be well suited for a lot of styles. The main concern is the alkalinity and that is easily rectified with an acid addition.



#4 Big Nake

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 05:51 AM

I know that conversations I had with AJ said that the sulfate levels should be lower than mine in delicate, pale lagers and that dilution would help with that and the alkalinity. If the alkalinity is easily addressed with acid, the sulfate looks to be the only hurdle and I honestly don't think 27ppm of sulfate is going to get in the way of many styles. If that's true, I'm going to try this on an upcoming 'pale beer experiment'. Thanks guys.

#5 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:12 AM

If I use 100% of my filtered tap water (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27, Bicarb 138) in a pale beer (SRM 4-5) and add about 4g of CaCl and 4ml of lactic acid (per Bru'N'Water), my mash pH (4 gallons) would be 5.2 and my bicarb would be neutralized. All of my other numbers are low enough and the Ca would be raised by the CaCl. I went from using 7 gallons (out of 8) of distilled water in a batch to using 6 gallons to using 4 gallons. Now I'm wondering if the bicarb-neutralizing angle would allow me to make a beer like this without even worrying about using distilled water. Thoughts?

 

This is what breweries do on the whole. They don't have time or money to waste on RO or distilled water. 



#6 Big Nake

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 07:27 AM

This is what breweries do on the whole. They don't have time or money to waste on RO or distilled water.

Somewhere in there I concluded that neutralizing my bicarb level with acid would require enough acid that I would go over the taste threshold. Now that I have been submerging myself in some of this, I see that this is not the case and I probably wasn't even close. Making a beer like this would require about 6ml of lactic acid for the entire batch and 6ml of acid in 8 gallons of water (5 gal batch) is not going to make itself known to your tastebuds. I have been on a bit of a pale beer rally and I will cook up a recipe where I can apply this approach and post back. The only question left after that would be... how high can your bicarb level be where you could still avoid diluting (and this would assume appropriate levels of other ions as well)? Thanks gang.

#7 denny

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:04 AM

pH aside, that's pretty low SO4 for a pale ale.



#8 positiveContact

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:16 AM

pH aside, that's pretty low SO4 for a pale ale.

 

he actually just said pale beer and i think he might be talking about a pale lager.  i made this mistake when i first read the thread as well.



#9 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:29 AM

Ken, if you think you might taste the lactic, buy some phosphoric acid. It's flavor neutral. I use it in my sparge volumes.



#10 Big Nake

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:36 AM

Oh yeah, sorry... something along the lines of a pilsner, helles, kolsch, blonde ale, cream ale, American wheat, etc. On a pale Czech lager I have in a keg now, I used 50% distilled and added only CaCl to the mash so my SO4 was 13.5ppm. This is a very nice beer all the way around. What does anyone think TWICE that SO4 (from 13.5 to 27) would do in a beer like this? I'm thinking it would be just fine. Maybe go easier on the hops because of the notion that noble hops and sulfates clash? I'm grabbing at straws.

Ken, if you think you might taste the lactic, buy some phosphoric acid. It's flavor neutral. I use it in my sparge volumes.

I have heard this. I think I read a number of times that lactic acid (or acid malt) is a German staple so it's possible that even if there *IS* a flavor contribution from the acid, it might actually be a favorable one. I'm planning a LHBS trip over the weekend and I will check into the HCL acid. It's usually 10%, correct?

Edited by KenLenard, 16 April 2014 - 08:36 AM.


#11 neddles

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:53 AM

Oh yeah, sorry... something along the lines of a pilsner, helles, kolsch, blonde ale, cream ale, American wheat, etc. On a pale Czech lager I have in a keg now, I used 50% distilled and added only CaCl to the mash so my SO4 was 13.5ppm. This is a very nice beer all the way around. What does anyone think TWICE that SO4 (from 13.5 to 27) would do in a beer like this? I'm thinking it would be just fine. Maybe go easier on the hops because of the notion that noble hops and sulfates clash? I'm grabbing at straws.I have heard this. I think I read a number of times that lactic acid (or acid malt) is a German staple so it's possible that even if there *IS* a flavor contribution from the acid, it might actually be a favorable one. I'm planning a LHBS trip over the weekend and I will check into the HCL acid. It's usually 10%, correct?

Ken, to be clear, you don't want HCl hydrochloric acid. You want H3PO4 phosphoric acid. (probably just a typo) Anyhow, I used 10% phosphoric acid in my Patersbier and it required like 50ml or so of it. Not a problem except my pH was more off (low) from my brunwater estimate that any other I have done. Martin suspected that it may be the result of imperfect dilutions of the acid being performed somewhere in the supply chain. Get 85% phosphoric if you can find it. Or, just stick with the 88% lactic. I think you are right on your assumptions about its flavor being good if noticeable at all.



#12 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:54 AM

Yes, my phosphoric is 10%. It's H3PO4, HCL is hydrochloric



#13 denny

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 08:54 AM

he actually just said pale beer and i think he might be talking about a pale lager.  i made this mistake when i first read the thread as well.

 

Oopps, you're right...I was thinking APA.  Time for more coffee!



#14 Big Nake

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:24 AM

Ah, okay got it. 85% or 10% Phosphoric.So anyone with an opinion on 27ppm of SO4 in a pale beer? Many people I know say that like the 'crispness' of adding sulfate to a pale beer while I hear others say that SO4 should be low in these styles. I plan to find out! Cheers.

#15 Steve Urquell

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 09:41 AM

I like that level in German Pils, not in Czech. Makes a big difference in the mouthfeel to me. My Czech has a soft mouthfeel wheras my German has a bit of bite to it.I brew a bunch of lighter, lower hopped styles than others though so my palate is more tuned into milder flavors than others.

Edited by chils, 16 April 2014 - 09:42 AM.


#16 Big Nake

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Posted 16 April 2014 - 01:44 PM

I like that level in German Pils, not in Czech. Makes a big difference in the mouthfeel to me. My Czech has a soft mouthfeel wheras my German has a bit of bite to it.I brew a bunch of lighter, lower hopped styles than others though so my palate is more tuned into milder flavors than others.

I'm going to try the 100% filtered tap water thing and I'm going to hop it "moderately" and use Wyeast 2278 Czech yeast. If it ends up coming out more like a German Pils, I'll be fine with that and if I want that softer, Czech thing... I'll dilute. I actually still have about 20 gallons of distilled water on hand. Maybe I could go 25% distilled on some batches which would bring me to 20ppm SO4. At this point, I think I may have finally solved this pale beer issue once and for all and I think it might be possible for me to eventually stop lugging all of this water around or at least buy less of it. That would be a glorious turn of events in my brewing. Just filter the tap water, adjust it accordingly based on the style and ROLL! Cheers guys.

Edited by KenLenard, 16 April 2014 - 01:46 PM.


#17 Bklmt2000

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:25 AM

Ken, I tackled this very issue this morning, (brewing a Munich Helles, a la Hofbrau Original,  as we speak).

 

I used 100% filtered tap water (as usual), and added 1/2 tsp lactic acid to the mash water + 1/2 tsp CaCl2 to the mash tun.  My water's sulfate levels, undiluted and out of the faucet, are ~70 ppm. 

 

Grist was 10lb Weyermann Pils + 1lb Weyermann Munich I, and the beer's target SRM is ~5-6.

 

When i tasted the wort during runoff, it tasted nice and sweet.   Got the normal-looking hot break, and the clarity is good so far.

 

I'll know more in a couple months once this batch goes on tap.  Will update if anyone is interested.



#18 neddles

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 10:30 AM

Will update if anyone is interested.

I am. I like to hear follow up on various recipes and procedures you guys are trying around here. I feel like I get something out of it almost every time.



#19 mabrungard

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Posted 17 April 2014 - 03:42 PM

I know that conversations I had with AJ said that the sulfate levels should be lower than mine in delicate, pale lagers and that dilution would help with that and the alkalinity. If the alkalinity is easily addressed with acid, the sulfate looks to be the only hurdle and I honestly don't think 27ppm of sulfate is going to get in the way of many styles. If that's true, I'm going to try this on an upcoming 'pale beer experiment'. Thanks guys.

 

I don't have the negative perception of sulfate that Dr. Chloride does. Sulfate has its place in many beer styles. However, it is fairly evident that sulfate would dry a finish and that can take away from the malty perceptions you may be looking for in malty styles. I agree that 27 ppm sulfate should not overly diminish the perceptions in a malty beer. 

 

Brew on!




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