105 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

Kids: Rich and I worked out a beer-for-flask agreement (the details of which are hilarious but I digress) so I now have a 1L flask and will soon have a 2L flask. I have mentioned in the past that I'll make a small starter (650ml of water plus ½ cup of DME) and when that starter is active, I pitch the whole thing. Many say that I am woefully underpitching but this has been my only experience with starters. So tell me how to build an Activator or a White Labs vial with the tools I have. In all of this time, I hear people say they have a 3-liter starter, 4-liter starter, etc. but I never understand the correlation between "liters" of starter wort and "milliliters" of actual yeast. When I use the MrMalty calculator (I know some of you prefer yeastcalc), I look for the amount of slurry I need because I'm usually harvesting so I'm green on how much yeast to "grow" for a starter. Tell me what to do: Make a starter (what size), let it rock, chill, decant, make another starter (what size), repeat, etc. Cheers.Ps. I do have pure O2 and I have a stirplate... both of which I use on every starter I make.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 02 March 2015 - 01:00 PM.

[denny]

I use a 1 gal. glass jug.  More volume than a flask for a lot less money.  For a lager, I'll use 3 qt. of wort, let it ferment out on the stirplate, crash, decant and feed it another 2 qt.  Let that ferment out, crash, decant and pitch.  Child like enough for ya? 

Edited by denny, 02 March 2015 - 01:05 PM.

[positiveContact]

I use yeastcalc to do the steps.  it tells you how many cells you grew and then puts that into the next step.  for instance for a 10 gallon batch of 1.052 lager yeastcalc said I need 730B cells or something along those lines.  so starting with about 85B cells of white labs yeast I would do the following:

 

1.5L starter: yields 296B cells, chill, decant, save yeast slurry.

3.25L starter:  yields 753B cells, chill, decant, pitch into delicious lager wort

 

as for estimating how much yeast you have from a previous batch is a little tougher.  If you let the yeast compact down in the fridge and you can estimate it's approximate volume you can then multiply it by the magic number (I'd have to find this) to estimate how many cells you've got there.  otherwise I'm not sure what to tell you.  it's a bit of guess work.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 02 March 2015 - 01:07 PM.

[Big Nake]

When you make your starter wort... what is the gravity... or how much DME should I use per liter of wort. Is that the right way to ask that question?

[positiveContact]

When you make your starter wort... what is the gravity... or how much DME should I use per liter of wort. Is that the right way to ask that question?

 

It's something like 1.037.  I do 100g DME per L of water.

[Poptop]

DME 1.040: 1# DME to 1 gallon - approximately

Edited by Steppedonapoptop, 02 March 2015 - 01:38 PM.

[positiveContact]

DME 1.040: 1# DME to 1 gallon - approximately

 

generally anything between 1.030 and 1.040 seems to be recommended, just FYI for Ken or anyone else.  this just needs to be taken into account when calculating yeast growth.

[HVB]

100 grams of DME per litter of water is how I always do it.  Easy to remember.

[Poptop]

This is a good topic to follow as I usually just shoot from the hip and don't count cells. I need to.

[positiveContact]

100 grams of DME per litter of water is how I always do it.  Easy to remember.

 

that's the main reason I go that way - I can't forget it

[Big Nake]

So it already sounds like I don't have a vessel large enough for this. I have 2 growlers that are only ½ gallon (so about 2 liters) and I have a 1-liter flask and I'll have the 2-liter flask. So I don't have anything I can use to make a 3-liter starter in at the moment. I'm also trying to picture the logistics: Make the 3-liter starter, let it go, decant and then take the yeast and throw it into my small 1-liter flask while I make the next starter, pour the yeast into the new starter and then pitch it from that container except... I don't have a container larger than 2-liters right now. I assume if I go 2-liter + 2-liter I would be considered low on volume, right? Also... 100g is about 3.5 ounces. So a 3-liter starter needs about 10.5 ounces of DME. I just picked up some DME and I'll tell you what... that shizzy is expensive!I see a 1-gallon glass jug HERE that is very cheap. But I assume that it's not rated for heat like a flask would be. When my wort is done boiling for 10 minutes or something, I pour I right into my flask which can take the heat. So Denny, what do you do... let it cool to a certain temp and then pour it into the jug? I'm going to have to go this route if I'm going to make a 3L starter.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 02 March 2015 - 02:01 PM.

[Bklmt2000]

Ken, to save some $$$ on buying DME, consider saving some of the last runnings on a brew day and freezing in a sanitized container. 

 

Easily done by collecting an additional 1-4 quarts after you collect your pre-boil volume.

 

Thaw out and boil like a DME starter, and you're off to the races. 

 

Just an idea.

[Poptop]

Hit your favorite sub shop and ask them to save you one of these (gallon)https://www.mtolivep...jalapeno-slices

[Big Nake]

Hit your favorite sub shop and ask them to save you one of these (gallon)https://www.mtolivep...jalapeno-slices

 Mmm, Jalapeno yeast!  I think I have this covered and I also have a pack of Wyeast 2002 Gambrinus which will be my first run at this.  I'll do a 3L starter with 10oz of DME and then a 2L with 7 ounces.  A pound of DME... sheesh!  That's like a $10 starter not including the yeast!  Cheers gang.

 

[SchwanzBrewer]

So it already sounds like I don't have a vessel large enough for this. I have 2 growlers that are only ½ gallon (so about 2 liters) and I have a 1-liter flask and I'll have the 2-liter flask. So I don't have anything I can use to make a 3-liter starter in at the moment. I'm also trying to picture the logistics: Make the 3-liter starter, let it go, decant and then take the yeast and throw it into my small 1-liter flask while I make the next starter, pour the yeast into the new starter and then pitch it from that container except... I don't have a container larger than 2-liters right now. I assume if I go 2-liter + 2-liter I would be considered low on volume, right? Also... 100g is about 3.5 ounces. So a 3-liter starter needs about 10.5 ounces of DME. I just picked up some DME and I'll tell you what... that shizzy is expensive!I see a 1-gallon glass jug HERE that is very cheap. But I assume that it's not rated for heat like a flask would be. When my wort is done boiling for 10 minutes or something, I pour I right into my flask which can take the heat. So Denny, what do you do... let it cool to a certain temp and then pour it into the jug? I'm going to have to go this route if I'm going to make a 3L starter.

 

Ken, what is the OG and gallons of beer you are making? A 1.050 lager at 5 gallons (5.5 gallon batch) needs around 400 billion cells. A 2 L starter with 1 smack pack or vial should just about get you there on a stir plate. No need to step it up. If you are within around 10% of the yeast cells needed then you are going to be fine. 

 

https://yeastcalculator.com/ is a great tool for this. I use Kai's numbers instead of Jamil's. I've not had any problems with alts and kolsches which also need more yeast. I plan on doing some lagers soon, but they have nearly identical fermentation schedules.

 

httpss://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pzyzdVmPuhw/VPTdaVJAEZI/AAAAAAAAB_o/YgEIL-Hv0-U/w758-h674-no/yeastcalc.png

 

Also, make the next starter wort and have it chilled and ready to pitch when you decant the first (chill to settle the yeast then decant). Then just pour the new wort right on top of the old cake. There's no big trub like in a beer, just yeast.

Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 02 March 2015 - 03:04 PM.

[Big Nake]

Ken, what is the OG and gallons of beer you are making? A 1.050 lager at 5 gallons (5.5 gallon batch) needs around 400 billion cells. A 2 L starter with 1 smack pack or vial should just about get you there on a stir plate. No need to step it up. If you are within around 10% of the yeast cells needed then you are going to be fine.  https://yeastcalculator.com/ is a great tool for this. I use Kai's numbers instead of Jamil's. I've not had any problems with alts and kolsches which also need more yeast. I plan on doing some lagers soon, but they have nearly identical fermentation schedules. httpss://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pzyzdVmPuhw/VPTdaVJAEZI/AAAAAAAAB_o/YgEIL-Hv0-U/w758-h674-no/yeastcalc.png

Yeah, I'm talking 5 gallon batches of 1.050(ish) lager. So a 2-liter starter with 7 ounces of DME and no step-up? If that's the case, things just got a whole lot easier.

[positiveContact]

So it already sounds like I don't have a vessel large enough for this.

 

 just remember that my numbers were for 10 gallons.

[Poptop]

Bkmlt2000 hit the nail on the head with reserving wort.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Yeah, I'm talking 5 gallon batches of 1.050(ish) lager. So a 2-liter starter with 7 ounces of DME and no step-up? If that's the case, things just got a whole lot easier.

 

Yeah, if you are in the ballpark then you won't notice a difference between beers fermented with exactly the right calculated and measured amount of yeast and one that was 10% less. Remember you've been making these with about 80% the amount of yeast that is recommended. If you were noticing fermentation issue types of off flavors (acetaldehyde or diacetyl) then I'd say you had a problem, but from your posts it's pretty clear there aren't many issue other than you nit picking your beer.

[Big Nake]

Yeah, if you are in the ballpark then you won't notice a difference between beers fermented with exactly the right calculated and measured amount of yeast and one that was 10% less. Remember you've been making these with about 80% the amount of yeast that is recommended. If you were noticing fermentation issue types of off flavors (acetaldehyde or diacetyl) then I'd say you had a problem, but from your posts it's pretty clear there aren't many issue other than you nit picking your beer.

That's true. I have been making starters that were about ¼ of the liquid (650ml as opposed to 2000ml) but about ½ the DME (4 ounces instead of 7) which sounds like I have been making a higher gravity starter then what we're talking about here. I wonder what impact that would have on the fact that the lagers I have been making with this small starter have ha no noticeable issues. You would think if my water volume was a fourth of this then my DME would be too. Not sure what to make of it but I can certainly make a 2L starter with 7 ounces of DME, no bump-up and take it for a spin. Thanks Rich.