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#1 positiveContact

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:14 PM

I recently had some Ayinger Jahrhundert and man is that tasty beer.  I don't have any immediate plans to brew it but in looking it up in the style guideline it's mentioned that the water should be high in sulfate, chloride and carbonates.  Typically I don't associate this with delicate beers like this but maybe I'm wrong.  Does the BJCP have this right or is it bad advice for the style?



#2 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:32 PM

I drink a fair bit of DAB in the summer and I don't find it particularly minerally. I think some of the bjcp descriptions refer more to the styles historically than the way the beers are currently. My $.02



#3 denny

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 01:35 PM

Based on what I know, I think the BJCP is correct.



#4 dmtaylor

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Posted 17 March 2015 - 05:13 PM

From what I've heard, the brewers in Dortmund treat their water to remove some of the minerals.  However I do not recall the source of this knowledge.



#5 denny

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:06 AM

Where's Martin?  :)



#6 positiveContact

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:25 AM

so adding carbonate seems a little crazy to me.  how could a beer this light be made while adding carbonate?  very counter-intuitive.

 

how much sulfate would be acceptable?

 

this is a nice style - I see it's in the same category as light American lager,  it's too bad bud didn't taste like the Ayinger Jahrhundert I had a few weeks back!



#7 neddles

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:46 AM

how could a beer this light be made while adding carbonate?  very counter-intuitive.

acid



#8 positiveContact

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 09:57 AM

acid

 

so why add the carbonate in the first place if you are going to chemically neutralize it?  I thought lactic turned the carbonate into something else.  maybe my understanding was wrong there.



#9 neddles

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:53 AM

so why add the carbonate in the first place if you are going to chemically neutralize it?  I thought lactic turned the carbonate into something else.  maybe my understanding was wrong there.

I wouldn't add it at all. I was just answering your question directly.

 

The following is coming from someone who does not know the style except that it is generally pale-ish in color. That said, it seems to me that if someone is adding carbonate/bicarbonate to their water to make this beer they are either just farting around or think that they want the flavor of the lactate ion they will have to add in order to get the pH back under control. If there is a minerally character in the beer either historically or according to BJCP then that character isn't going to come from carbonate it is going to come from sulfate and chloride or perhaps other flavor ions. Any carbonates added will need to be acid neutralized as you suggested Morty.



#10 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:55 AM

Morty- What's the mineral composition of your water now?



#11 positiveContact

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 10:57 AM

I wouldn't add it at all. I was just answering your question directly.

 

The following is coming from someone who does not know the style except that it is generally pale-ish in color. That said, it seems to me that if someone is adding carbonate/bicarbonate to their water to make this beer they are either just farting around or think that they want the flavor of the lactate ion they will have to add in order to get the pH back under control. If there is a minerally character in the beer either historically or according to BJCP then that character isn't going to come from carbonate it is going to come from sulfate and chloride or perhaps other flavor ions. Any carbonates added will need to be acid neutralized as you suggested Morty.

 

so the question is - how much sulfate and chloride?

Morty- What's the mineral composition of your water now?

 

Calcium (ppm) Magnesium (ppm) Sodium (ppm) Sulfate (ppm) Chloride (ppm) Bicarbonate (ppm)

Existing Water Profile   6   3 29 14   26   27



#12 positiveContact

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:01 AM

for a beer like this I'd probably consider employing gypsum, calcium chloride and acid malt (or acid for those of you that use it straight up!).



#13 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:01 AM

Wow, that is soft and salty



#14 positiveContact

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:02 AM

Wow, that is soft and salty

 

29 ppm is salty?  I guess I never knew!



#15 neddles

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:03 AM

so the question is - how much sulfate and chloride?

Yep that is the question. And I have no idea. I suppose it  might depend on if you are brewing for competition of for personal taste.



#16 positiveContact

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:03 AM

Yep that is the question. And I have no idea. I suppose it  might depend on if you are brewing for competition of for personal taste.

 

I'd be interested in getting something similar to the ayinger since that was excellent.



#17 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:05 AM

for a beer like this I'd probably consider employing gypsum, calcium chloride and acid malt (or acid for those of you that use it straight up!).

I add gypsum and calc chloride most of my beers and this is my water:

 

Calcium 39

Mg 12.8

Sodium 8.5

Sulfate 28

Chloride 15

Alk 150

29 ppm is salty?  I guess I never knew!

I said salty because the minerals you do have are sodium and chloride  :D



#18 neddles

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:12 AM

I'd be interested in getting something similar to the ayinger since that was excellent.

I would have no idea and it's probably not even helpful to say that Ayinger is a long ways from Dortmund. Unless you can dig up some inside info on what they do with their water for that beer Imma 'fraid your gonna have to rely on your own buds.



#19 positiveContact

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:14 AM

I would have no idea and it's probably not even helpful to say that Ayinger is a long ways from Dortmund. Unless you can dig up some inside info on what they do with their water for that beer Imma 'fraid your gonna have to rely on your own buds.

 

my buds are not that good :lol:



#20 neddles

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Posted 18 March 2015 - 11:16 AM

my buds are not that good :lol:

Mine either.




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