46 replies to this topic

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I would have no idea and it's probably not even helpful to say that Ayinger is a long ways from Dortmund. Unless you can dig up some inside info on what they do with their water for that beer Imma 'fraid your gonna have to rely on your own buds.

Great point, Ayinger is 630 km away from Dortmund. I guess you can brew a great Dort without Dort water.

[positiveContact]

Great point, Ayinger is 630 km away from Dortmund. I guess you can brew a great Dort without Dort water.

 

maybe it's not exactly to style but it's a really tasty beer.  so clean and refreshing but still balanced.

[neddles]

maybe it's not exactly to style but it's a really tasty beer.  so clean and refreshing but still balanced.

About 1.051 and 5.5% abv. according to their website. You can do it Morty!

 

What is the malt character like in that beer. Helles like or more malty? looks very light in color.

Edited by nettles, 18 March 2015 - 11:40 AM.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

maybe it's not exactly to style but it's a really tasty beer.  so clean and refreshing but still balanced.

Every beer has a range as to what is in style. The guidelines list minerally water as an ingredient but the flavor description says "Some mineral character might be noted from the water, although it usually does not come across as an overt mineral flavor." As a judge I wouldn't ding someone for lacking a mineral character. Might doesn't mean must have. 

 

In this thread on the AHA forum, Gordon Strong says the mineral quality of Dortmunders are overstated. As Grand Master 8/9 I'd defer to his judgement. httpss://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=7870.0

[neddles]

What distinguishes it from German Pils, higher gravity?

[positiveContact]

it's a little more full tasting to me than a helles.  not super malty.  bitterness is well balanced with the malt.  hop aroma is pretty minimal.  most of the aroma is nice toasty, malty kind of stuff going on.  I'm surprised how cloudy that picture is - mine was crystal clear and very light.  I'd be willing to bet it's mostly pils with a little bit of munich or something similar.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 18 March 2015 - 11:44 AM.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Helles 16-22 ibus

Dort 23-30 ibus

German Pils 25-45 ibus

 

I'd say a Helles is less bitter and more malty, a Dort is a good ballance of malty and bitter/hoppy and a German Pils is more crisp and the ballance is more to the bitter/hoppy.

[positiveContact]

Helles 16-22 ibus

Dort 23-30 ibus

German Pils 25-45 ibus

 

I'd say a Helles is less bitter and more malty, a Dort is a good ballance of malty and bitter/hoppy and a German Pils is more crisp and the ballance is more to the bitter/hoppy.

 

that sounds about right to me.  the dort is in a very nice middle ground.

[Brauer]

My understanding is that this is a Munich Export, not a Doirtmunder Export. That seems to mean that it is essentially a slightly higher ABV Helles made with some amount of Munich Malt and Munich water, as opposed to the sulfate-rich water that was used for classic Dortmunder Export.

 

Export is probably the most common beer on tap in much of Germany. It is made all over the country and probably with a wide variety of recipes and water. The Dortmunder Union Brewery is the one associated with the classic version that defines the style but isn't identical to every beer that carries the Export label.

[positiveContact]

do they actually use "munich water" anymore though?

[Brauer]

I doubt that it is still high in Carbonate by the time they use it. It might still be moderate in Chloride and Sulfate. Depending on if they remove the Carbonate by acid addition or boiling, it may or may not still be moderately high in Calcium. So, they could be using quite soft water, which might be part of why I've considered this beer as more of a Helles than a (Dortmunder) Export. 

 

I haven't seen one of these around for a while. I'll need to track one down and make sure I remember it correctly.

[Brauer]

The German website I found that made the distinction between Munich-style and Dortmunder-style Export described the Munich Export as being made with Calcareous water, but I'm sure they do something to reduce the Carbonate.

Edited by Brauer, 19 March 2015 - 03:51 AM.

[positiveContact]

I've asked this before but is there a reasonable way to just add calcium?

 

and what is considered a moderate amount of sulfate and chloride?

 

with a beer this light every detail counts.

[denny]

Great point, Ayinger is 630 km away from Dortmund. I guess you can brew a great Dort without Dort water.

 

How do you know they use Dortmund water in Dortmund?  Most breweries will treat their water i some fashion, so it's easy for one brewery to have the same water profile as one far away.

[Brauer]

It's impossible to just add Ca, since we are always adding a salt, which means there is some co-ion. You can neutralize a CaCO3 or CaOH solution with some acid, though. That's about the only way to actually duplicate Munich water. I'd probably just add CaCl2 and CaSO4 to about 35-40 ppm each of Cl and SO4, myself.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

How do you know they use Dortmund water in Dortmund?  Most breweries will treat their water i some fashion, so it's easy for one brewery to have the same water profile as one far away.

I doubt they truck it in but yes, I'd bet they do treat it. Sort of my point from the start. It may have been very minerally at one point, doesn't seem so much that way now. 

[Big Nake]

In a beer like this with the pale color and a slightly higher level of sulfate, you might get more hop presense with less hops because the sulfate is adding some dimension of crispness. I have used more bittering hops than I should have on some pale lagers where a higher amount of sulfate was present and it can get harsh. Does anyone still believe in the idea that noble hops and sulfate 'clash' in a pale beer? When I make a pale lager, I typically only add CaCl (my source water Cl is 21, SO4 is 27) and I occasionally even dilute to get that SO4 number down... especially for something like a Czech Pils.

[denny]

In a beer like this with the pale color and a slightly higher level of sulfate, you might get more hop presense with less hops because the sulfate is adding some dimension of crispness. I have used more bittering hops than I should have on some pale lagers where a higher amount of sulfate was present and it can get harsh. Does anyone still believe in the idea that noble hops and sulfate 'clash' in a pale beer? When I make a pale lager, I typically only add CaCl (my source water Cl is 21, SO4 is 27) and I occasionally even dilute to get that SO4 number down... especially for something like a Czech Pils.

 

I certainly don't believe that.  When I make German pils, I use a fairly high sulfate level and a lot of hops...Mt. Hood, Hallertau, or Tett.

[JMcG]

Helles 16-22 ibus

Dort 23-30 ibus

German Pils 25-45 ibus

 

I'd say a Helles is less bitter and more malty, a Dort is a good ballance of malty and bitter/hoppy and a German Pils is more crisp and the ballance is more to the bitter/hoppy.

This seems to describe my perception of these styles. 

I think I'd rev up the Helles (OG and IBUs)a smidge and add some gypsum, adjust from there.

[positiveContact]

It's impossible to just add Ca, since we are always adding a salt, which means there is some co-ion. You can neutralize a CaCO3 or CaOH solution with some acid, though. That's about the only way to actually duplicate Munich water.I'd probably just add CaCl2 and CaSO4 to about 35-40 ppm each of Cl and SO4, myself.

 

plus some acid I'm guessing!  I will certainly have to dig into my acid malt to get my pH into range.