47 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

System is a EHERMS. It recirculates through a coil but it is not hotter at all. The old system was a cooler and kettle, batch sparge. The only part I wonder about is after my mash of 60min I raise the temp on the PID to mashout. Well it takes awhile(15-20min) for the wort to get up to temp but the temp in the HLT only takes about 5min.

 

My water is really low on all numbers but I build it up for every batch. Calcium is about 50ppm for every batch.

Probably the least important part of the mash, for most people. However, some get a lot of conversion during the mashout due to poor conversion during the main mash.

Yeah I get around 95% efficiency.

That's interesting, I was going to ask if you had low efficiency, thinking that you might be having incomplete conversion... Have you ever checked conversion % before the mashout? Maybe you are getting a lot of conversion at higher temperatures, during your mashout, leading to low fermentability.

 

Also, how are you calibrating your thermometer? I use a lab thermometer that I've checked the calibration of in ice water and boiling water once, then I re-check it in the boil during each brew day. 

[matt6150]

Probably the least important part of the mash, for most people. However, some get a lot of conversion during the mashout due to poor conversion during the main mash.

That's interesting, I was going to ask if you had low efficiency, thinking that you might be having incomplete conversion... Have you ever checked conversion % before the mashout? Maybe you are getting a lot of conversion at higher temperatures, during your mashout, leading to low fermentability.

 

Also, how are you calibrating your thermometer? I use a lab thermometer that I've checked the calibration of in ice water and boiling water once, then I re-check it in the boil during each brew day. 

I have checked it a couple times during the mash before I started mash out and it was 100%, but that's not to say it always is. I'm think I'm going to do some 90 min mashes on the next couple brews to see if that helps and check it along the way.

 

I check the PID thermometer up to a thermapen and has always been right on. 

[matt6150]

Ok I'm bumping this as it is still a issue with my beers. I always seem to have low attenuation. Over many of experiments and note taking I may have a theory. Basically what Brauer was getting to above it appears I am not getting complete conversion during the mash. It isn't until mashout when I get the last 20-25%. So I got a false bottom coming that I plan on trying during the next brew. I think the manifold I am using now is just not cutting it.

[positiveContact]

try going back to the cooler for a batch and see how that works.

[HVB]

I should just go back and read but I am lazy.  So you have good efficiency but poor attenuation?  So the opposite of me

[positiveContact]

I should just go back and read but I am lazy.  So you have good efficiency but poor attenuation?  So the opposite of me

 

mix your worts.

[matt6150]

I should just go back and read but I am lazy. So you have good efficiency but poor attenuation? So the opposite of me

Yes and you mentioned this on the last page.

[3rd party JKor]

Ok I'm bumping this as it is still a issue with my beers. I always seem to have low attenuation. Over many of experiments and note taking I may have a theory. Basically what Brauer was getting to above it appears I am not getting complete conversion during the mash. It isn't until mashout when I get the last 20-25%. So I got a false bottom coming that I plan on trying during the next brew. I think the manifold I am using now is just not cutting it.

You could also try stirring up the mash every 5-10 minutes, if you're having a channeling issue due to your manifold or return design this would even things out. If that solved your problem you can probably chalk it up to MLT design.

[matt6150]

You could also try stirring up the mash every 5-10 minutes, if you're having a channeling issue due to your manifold or return design this would even things out. If that solved your problem you can probably chalk it up to MLT design.

Yep. This was one of the "experiments" I referred to. Although I didn't stir every 5-10 minutes. I stirred twice during the 30 minutes and it improved big time.

[HVB]

Yes and you mentioned this on the last page.

I should have looked back!

[denny]

Yep. This was one of the "experiments" I referred to. Although I didn't stir every 5-10 minutes. I stirred twice during the 30 minutes and it improved big time.

 

That's interesting...I've never found it to have any effect.  How long do you stir when you mash in?  Do you check temp at various places to make sure it's uniform?

[3rd party JKor]

Yep. This was one of the "experiments" I referred to. Although I didn't stir every 5-10 minutes. I stirred twice during the 30 minutes and it improved big time.

Yeah, sounds like you may have found the problem.

[3rd party JKor]

That's interesting...I've never found it to have any effect. How long do you stir when you mash in? Do you check temp at various places to make sure it's uniform?

I don't know what he's using as an MLT, but if its not insulated it will lose temp quickly around the edges if there's channeling in the recirc path. It sounds like he has two data points that validate that:

1. Getting a lot of conversion during mashout. This indicates that a good chunk of the grain bed was below conversion temp during the main rest. This also explains low attenuation, since jumping the grain bed from below conversion temp into upper alpha rest range will leave you with a relatively low fermentability wort.

2. Stirring inproving attenuation. Evening out grain bed temp during the mash brings more of the grain into ideal conversion range thereby bumping fermentability.

It's a little harder to explain if his MLT is insulated, because you shouldn't see the edge effects as much in a cooler regardless of channelling. Maybe if it's poorly insulated? Certainly in something like a keggle you're going to have significant heat loss if it's not insulated.

[denny]

I don't know what he's using as an MLT, but if its not insulated it will lose temp quickly around the edges if there's channeling in the recirc path. It sounds like he has two data points that validate that:

1. Getting a lot of conversion during mashout. This indicates that a good chunk of the grain bed was below conversion temp during the main rest. This also explains low attenuation, since jumping the grain bed from below conversion temp into upper alpha rest range will leave you with a relatively low fermentability wort.

2. Stirring inproving attenuation. Evening out grain bed temp during the mash brings more of the grain into ideal conversion range thereby bumping fermentability.

It's a little harder to explain if his MLT is insulated, because you shouldn't see the edge effects as much in a cooler regardless of channelling. Maybe if it's poorly insulated? Certainly in something like a keggle you're going to have significant heat loss if it's not insulated.

 

Both of those points are why I asked.  Not stirring thoroughly enough at mash in could cause those problems/

[neddles]

He will fill us in but I *think* Matt is running a HERMS.

[3rd party JKor]

He said eHERMS earlier in the thread. Not much detail beyond that.

[HVB]

He will fill us in but I *think* Matt is running a HERMS.

He is running a HERMS, coil in his HLT.

[Brauer]

Recirculation with channeling might explain your tannin extraction, especially during a sparge.

[matt6150]

That's interesting...I've never found it to have any effect.  How long do you stir when you mash in?  Do you check temp at various places to make sure it's uniform?

I never did either when I batched sparged. I stir long enough to get all the grain incorporated well and then some. I have checked around the surface in multiple spots, yes. That's using a thermapen so it can only go so deep. Also I have a temp probe at the exit of the MLT I monitor with the PID. 

 

He said eHERMS earlier in the thread. Not much detail beyond that.

Yes eHERMS, as drez said coil is in the HLT. Here is some detail. https://www.brews-br...uild/?p=1725820

 

Recirculation with channeling might explain your tannin extraction, especially during a sparge.

Well this could be a possibility then. During the sparge of my last brew I monitored the pH and the gravity very closely. pH was 5.6-5.8 and gravity stayed above 1.010 the entire time. But I guess that doesn't always mean I wouldn't extract tannins. I think I would have tasted it in my post boil sample though?

[3rd party JKor]

My suggestions:

1. Insulate the MLT

2. Keep liquid level above the top of the grain bed

3. Better manifold design (maybe false bottom will help)