23 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

If you are using acidulated malt in the mash, do you need to acidify the sparge?

 

Lets assume it's a pale beer.

 

When I brew kolsch I use acidulated malt. I add lactic acid to the sparge to reduce the RA, but that is all. The beer is turning out great. This point is anecdotal.

 

I understand that the whole purpose of the malt is to acidify the mash, but how much of that lactic that was on the malt stay with the mash after the first runnings or in may case after a little while of fly sparging?

 

I need to get back to taking more PH measurements. 

[neddles]

I'm sure it depends on the situation. Really depends on the contents of the sparge water. If it is high bicarbonate sparge water there may not be enough acidity left in the grains to overcome the buffering power of the bicarbonate. In that case you could potentially extract tannins and raise the pre-boil kettle pH above the desired range. If it were DI/RO water it would probably be fine.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I'm sure it depends on the situation. Really depends on the contents of the sparge water. If it is high bicarbonate sparge water there may not be enough acidity left in the grains to overcome the buffering power of the bicarbonate. In that case you could potentially extract tannins and raise the pre-boil kettle pH above the desired range. If it were DI/RO water it would probably be fine.

 

My case is the former.

[positiveContact]

I kind of suspect it's about the same as if you added lactic to the mash and then sparged after.  in other words - most of the lactic acid is gone by the time the sparge happens.

[Big Nake]

There are variables all over. The starting pH of the water, the bicarb level in the water, how much acid malt, etc. Using acid malt is too much of a variable in itself, IMO so that's why I like just using the acid. On a pale beer, I might be mashing with 4½ gallons of water and sparging with 3½. If my source water pH is 7.5 and my bicarb is 138, I certainly don't want that water coming in contact with the grains without doing something with it first. Brauer mentioned just bringing the pH of the sparge water down into the mid-5s and then you would have nothing to worry about. So that's what I do. It usually takes about 1½ milliliters of lactic acid to bring my 3½ gallons of sparge water down to around 5.5 or so. I add it while the sparge water is heating and then add the water to the sparge when it's about 165° or so. I take a pH reading at that point and my "sparge pH" is usually in the 5.3 to 5.5 range which I consider excellent for a pre-boil number.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 15 April 2015 - 01:51 PM.

[Brauer]

I kind of suspect it's about the same as if you added lactic to the mash and then sparged after.

I'd think so. If you manage to hit pH 5.4 with acid, salts, or Munich Malt, they're probably all essentially equivalent once the sparge begins.

[mabrungard]

 

I understand that the whole purpose of the malt is to acidify the mash, but how much of that lactic that was on the malt stay with the mash after the first runnings or in may case after a little while of fly sparging?

 

 

How about none. As you sparge with an overly alkaline water, you will rapidly overwhelm the acidic environment and end up with exactly the situation you don't want: high mash pH. If the tap water is alkaline, you do need to acidify to bring that alkalinity down to low level, preferably 25 ppm or less. 

 

This is one of the reasons why I think that acid malt is STUPID. Sure, it takes care of the mash pH, but does nothing for the sparge. If your water is alkaline, you have to acidify with some other form of acid!

[Brauer]

This is one of the reasons why I think that acid malt is STUPID. Sure, it takes care of the mash pH, but does nothing for the sparge. If your water is alkaline, you have to acidify with some other form of acid!

"STUPID" is a little overstated. I don't have to acidify my sparge, so all I have to do is take care of my mash pH. Acid Malt allows me to do that with the scale I already have out for my brewday, without adding a pipette, pipettor, and bottle of acid.

[positiveContact]

This is one of the reasons why I think that acid malt is STUPID. Sure, it takes care of the mash pH, but does nothing for the sparge. If your water is alkaline, you have to acidify with some other form of acid!

 

either would work fine for me. I don't need to acidify my sparge water.  since my mash pH is very predicable it's just as easy to use.  it gets measured out with the rest of the grain.  no big deal.

brauer - I'm not that fast in the morning.  give me a chance!

 

"STUPID" is a little overstated. I don't have to acidify my sparge, so all I have to do is take care of my mash pH. Acid Malt allows me to do that with the scale I already have out for my brewday, without adding a pipette, pipettor, and bottle of acid.

[Brauer]

either would work fine for me. I don't need to acidify my sparge water. since my mash pH is very predicable it's just as easy to use. it gets measured out with the rest of the grain. no big deal.brauer - I'm not that fast in the morning. give me a chance!

Morning? 7 am is practically mid-day! Another malt that brewers often neglect for pH control is Munich Malt, where it fits.

[positiveContact]

Morning? 7 am is practically mid-day! ;)Another malt that brewers often neglect for pH control is Munich Malt, where it fits.

 

even though I had been up since 5:15 I don't really become fully functional until 8 or 9

[SchwanzBrewer]

How about none. As you sparge with an overly alkaline water, you will rapidly overwhelm the acidic environment and end up with exactly the situation you don't want: high mash pH. If the tap water is alkaline, you do need to acidify to bring that alkalinity down to low level, preferably 25 ppm or less. 

 

This is one of the reasons why I think that acid malt is STUPID. Sure, it takes care of the mash pH, but does nothing for the sparge. If your water is alkaline, you have to acidify with some other form of acid!

 

My training as an engineer helps me in these situations. I suspected there wouldn't be enough acid left in the mash after even a short bit of sparging, so I've been acidifying the sparge, especially for light colored wort.

[Big Nake]

...so I've been acidifying the sparge, especially for light colored wort.

Bingo.

[HVB]

For those with FB you may want to see where the discussion goes.

 

httpss://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-Water/464551136933908?fref=nf

[mabrungard]

"STUPID" is a little overstated. I don't have to acidify my sparge, so all I have to do is take care of my mash pH. Acid Malt allows me to do that with the scale I already have out for my brewday, without adding a pipette, pipettor, and bottle of acid.

 

OK, you got me. That might be overstated. So I did look into this on a more analytical basis and posted that on the Bru'n Water Facebook page. Accuracy and economy are the main drawbacks, but it may not be too significant. Read below:

 

httpss://www.facebook.com/pages/Brun-Water/464551136933908?ref=bookmarks

[SchwanzBrewer]

It's important if you want to be traditional and follow the reinheitsgebot. Like I said, I use both acidulated malt and I use lactic on the sparge water. It seems to work for me in the mash on the Kolsch, but it was noticeably different in that I think the malt flavor was a little brighter the first time I did it and I had to increase the hops a little to balance it in subsequent batches.

[Brauer]

but it may not be too significant. 

Well, that I'd agree with.

 

I've made the mistake of calling something stupid before, myself, so I'll just call the anti-Acid Malt argument specious and not worry about the $0.05 more it might cost me. 

[Big Nake]

I mentioned that I thought acid malt had its variables and that I prefer the acid alone. The acid is cheap and a small 4-ounce bottle will last me a long time. Stocking enough acid malt to do the same job as that bottle of lactic acid is just not reasonable to me. I like to design my recipe with whatever grains I want and if the mash pH needs to be lowered, we're talking like a teaspoon of acid to get the job done and then I can wash my hands of the whole thing. OTOH, I know that if you're following the German purity law, the acid malt is your friend and can do the same job although probably not as efficiently. I wouldn't knock anyone using the acid malt but I prefer the straight acid.

[positiveContact]

I think what you guys are missing is that the variability of acid malt (in my limited experience with it) isn't a big deal.  It would have to be way off to make a noticeable effect.  I have yet to experience this.

 

Using acid is fine too.  I'm not even sure why I use acid malt.  Storage isn't an issue for me - I have a whole closet dedicated to beer storage and it's far from full.  I guess as of right now the only reason I haven't used acid is I'm too lazy to look into getting some

[HVB]

I use both but only because I bought the acid malt prior to get some 88% lactic.  Once the Acid malt is used up I am not sure I will replace it.