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Ken and I go and drink beer, and now my brain hurts


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#1 darkmagneto

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 05:05 PM

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Ken and I went out for beers the other night and all I have done for the past week is think about our conversation on water.  We live close by, and we have the same water.[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Calcium 34, Magnesium 12, Sodium 13, Chloride 21, Sulfate 27 (which is 9x3 because it’s expressed as SO4-S) and bicarbonate or HCO3 which is 138.[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]I would like to brew an IPA (Pliny type of clone).[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]I hear everyone gets boners over the Bru'N profile for Pale Ale/IPA.  That profile is the following:[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"][color=rgb(0,0,0);]ca 140 [/color][color=rgb(0,0,0);]mg 18 [/color][color=rgb(0,0,0);]na 25 [/color][color=rgb(0,0,0);]sulfate 300 [/color][color=rgb(0,0,0);]chloride 55[/color][/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]To achieve these #'s using the EZ Water spreadsheet it looks like I'll have to add the following to my mash water:[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]13.5 grams of gypsum, 1 gram of calcium chloride, 1.8 grams of epsom salt (magnesium sulfate) and .9 grams of non-iodized salt (to our source water) and then water numbers would be:[/font]

 
[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Ca: 144[/font]
[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Mg: 18[/font]
[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Na: 25[/font]
[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]SO4: 299[/font]
[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Chl: 55[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]So......here are my questions.[/font]

 

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]1.  Do you guys just treat the Mash water?[/font]

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]2.  Just neutralize the PH on the sparge water?  [/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Here is what I'm envisioning....[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Mash with roughly 4 gallons of water and add my salts/etc to that water.[/font]

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Mash for 1 hour[/font]

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Batch sparge with the rest of the water and just use lactic acid to lower the pH[/font]

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Boil as normal[/font]

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Cool as normal[/font]

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Ferment as normal[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Does this make sense?[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Ken has my brain spinning and I just need to talk/type through this.  Does this make sense?[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]I've never really done much with my water.  All I usually do is mix distilled water in the mash because we have such hi BiCarbonate and then add a few grams of gypsum back to the water.  I've never been happy with my IPA's and really looking to get to that next level.[/font]

 

[font="tahoma, geneva, sans-serif;"]Thoughts?  Concerns?[/font]

 

 

 

 

 

 



#2 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 05:14 PM

drink more?



#3 Big Nake

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 06:11 PM

drink more?

You know, for a guy about to open his own brewpub, I expected more from you sir! :P :DI did mentioned to DM that many brewers who like to boost their sulfate into the 300s (ppm) will also add a good amount of that to the brew kettle where it's basically acting like a 'flavor enhancer' as opposed to something you need for the mash, etc. I know a lot of you guys like to make hoppy pale ales, IPAs, etc so if anyone would care to post their overall water numbers for a beer like that, it might be helpful here.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 16 April 2015 - 06:13 PM.


#4 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 16 April 2015 - 07:22 PM

I generally add gypsum to the kettle for pale/IPA.

 

I think a good way to approach it would be to get your mash PH taken care of with everything you need, but over load remaining gypsum in the boil. I've even added gypsum with a sugar addition during fermentation for a DIPA because I forgot to add it during the boil. Still makes those hops pop.



#5 positiveContact

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:02 AM

I generally add gypsum to the kettle for pale/IPA.

 

I think a good way to approach it would be to get your mash PH taken care of with everything you need, but over load remaining gypsum in the boil. I've even added gypsum with a sugar addition during fermentation for a DIPA because I forgot to add it during the boil. Still makes those hops pop.

 

this is what I typically do however it's the rare case that I don't end up adding all of it to the mash.  since I mash thin and most of my IPAs are light in color I need to drop my mash pH significantly.

 

when I made pliny I moved my sulfate from ~30 up to over 300.  I think I also used a little calcium chloride.  This all went into the mash and I still had to use a little acid malt to get my pH at 5.3.

 

eta: I could be wrong on the pliny and I might be thinking of another hoppy pale I made.  I don't have my brewing recipes right in front of me.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 17 April 2015 - 05:03 AM.


#6 HVB

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:09 AM

This is a pretty typical beer for me.  I just follow the Mash and Sparge column.  Most of the time I add the Sparge additions to the kettle, minus the lactic.

 

httpss://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-nhjjtB6SGXc/VTD3pmyTmMI/AAAAAAAAJ60/aihEPy8GA1g/w1152-h637-no/water%2Bbw.png



#7 positiveContact

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:11 AM

I've always just set the sparge amount to zero in bru'n water so that all of additions go into the mash.  that's mostly due to the fact that I pretty much always just want to put everything in the mash.



#8 darkmagneto

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:18 AM

Thanks Evil and Drez-

 

If you just throw all of the Gypsul/CaCL into the mash, do you then just lower the pH of your sparge water (with lactic acid, etc)?



#9 HVB

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:24 AM

Thanks Evil and Drez-

 

If you just throw all of the Gypsul/CaCL into the mash, do you then just lower the pH of your sparge water (with lactic acid, etc)?

For me, Yes, I will add the lactic amount to the sparge water but I am not sure I even need it with my quick batch sparge.  On my next brew I will take a pH reading of the sparge with no acid addition to see where it is.  I have done this in the past but can not remember the value.

I've always just set the sparge amount to zero in bru'n water so that all of additions go into the mash.  that's mostly due to the fact that I pretty much always just want to put everything in the mash.

I do this too for the no-sparge or BIAB beers I do. 



#10 neddles

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:50 AM

I've always just set the sparge amount to zero in bru'n water so that all of additions go into the mash.  that's mostly due to the fact that I pretty much always just want to put everything in the mash.

 

I do this too for the no-sparge or BIAB beers I do. 

I brew no-sparge/BIAB and this is what I do. It's very simple to do. The only exception is if I make a kettle adjustment to the pH pre-boil, but that is pretty uncommon.

 

I've said it before but I think making sure your pH is correct should be the #1 priority, mineral content is secondary. You can easily do both in Brunwater by adding the necessary salts to get the ions where you want them and then adjust the pH downward with acid/acid malt, or upward with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) or pickling lime (calcium hydroxide). If your having any trouble putting it together keep asking questions here. We'll help you make it work.



#11 Big Nake

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:54 AM

I was telling DM that when I first started reading through some threads like this, my head would spin and the deeper they got without questions in my head being answered, the more my head would spin. Are there any "bullets" we can put up to help clarify?» Calcium chloride lowers mash and/or sparge pH and it lends a smooth, rounded fullness to the beer» Calcium Sulfate (gypsum) also lowers mash and/or sparge pH and it lends a sharper, crisper character to beer and accentuates hoppiness» It has been noted that some amount of calcium can be beneficial in all areas of brewing... mash, sparge, boil, fermentation. If you have low calcium (less than 50ppm), calcium chloride or calcium sulfate can be added to the mash to raise calcium. However, it's not necessary to add calcium chloride or calcium sulfate to your mash as long as the mash already has sufficient water ions. Since calcium chloride and calcium sulfate are used to direct the "flavor perception" of beer, they can be added to the brew kettle.» Mash pH should be between 5.2 and 5.4. Water that is higher in bicarbonate can be more stubborn to lower the pH in. An acid can be used to "neutralize" the bicarbonate in the water.» When adding the sparge water to the grains (I'm referring to batch sparging), make sure that water is not over a pH of 6.0. Lower the pH of the sparge water with acid before heating it.» Excessive tannin extraction (harsh flavors) can occur when the mash, sparge or boil is over a mash pH of 6.0. High temperature (over 180°?) can also trigger excessive tannin extraction.» Try to keep the pH of the boil in the mid 5s. Boiling wort that has a high pH can lead to a darkening of the wort and a pesky haze that will not go away and can also lead to harsh, husky and grainy flavors.» Tools to use for all of this: A good pH meter or good strips. Calcium chloride. Calcium sulfate. Lactic acid.» I have heard that the flavor threshold for lactic acid is about 1ml per gallon of water used. I typically start with 8 gallons of water for a 5 gallon batch and I typically only use 3-4 milliliters of acid in a 5 gallon batch. But I do think that there might be a flavor component to the acid that beer drinkers find pleasing at low levels.» A beer made this way with the proper water and pH seems to POP a little more to me. We have all heard of "dull" or "flabby" beers which usually refer to a beer that was made wit an overall high pH. There seems to be a nice, fresh SNAP to beers that have a lower pH.Okay, now *MY* head is spinning! :D If any of the above is pure fiction or inaccurate, please correct me.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 17 April 2015 - 05:55 AM.


#12 HVB

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 05:57 AM

Ken,

 

Nice breakdown.



#13 neddles

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:04 AM

Ken,

 

Nice breakdown.

Yep, that hits on all the key points and then some.



#14 positiveContact

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:17 AM

one question - generally I'm not sure how you'd end up with a really high pH in the boil if you've taken care of your mash and sparge but still - how would high pH in the boil extract tannins from grain husks that aren't even there?



#15 darkmagneto

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 06:20 AM

OK, thanks everyone!  I think I got this and I'm going to give it a shot on my next brew day.  I'll keep everyone updated!



#16 haeffnkr

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 07:33 AM

I brew no-sparge/BIAB and this is what I do. It's very simple to do. The only exception is if I make a kettle adjustment to the pH pre-boil, but that is pretty uncommon.

 

I've said it before but I think making sure your pH is correct should be the #1 priority, mineral content is secondary. You can easily do both in Brunwater by adding the necessary salts to get the ions where you want them and then adjust the pH downward with acid/acid malt, or upward with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) or pickling lime (calcium hydroxide). If your having any trouble putting it together keep asking questions here. We'll help you make it work.

 

I  BIAB also and since my brew keggle will only hold 13 gallons of water and 20+ pounds of grain I need to sparge/rinse a couple of gallons through the grain to get to my 14 gallon starting boil volume.

 

I have been using straight RO water, untreated, for the 2.5 gallons sparge I do. It is really just a rinse through the grain to add a bit of wort to the kettle and get up to my boil volume.

Should I be adding acid or something to this water?

 

thanks Kevin



#17 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 08:25 AM

You know, for a guy about to open his own brewpub, I expected more from you sir! :P :D 

 

Remember Ken, being a becoming a professional means learning how to sell beer. I'm just practicing.



#18 neddles

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 09:23 AM

I BIAB also and since my brew keggle will only hold 13 gallons of water and 20+ pounds of grain I need to sparge/rinse a couple of gallons through the grain to get to my 14 gallon starting boil volume.I have been using straight RO water, untreated, for the 2.5 gallons sparge I do. It is really just a rinse through the grain to add a bit of wort to the kettle and get up to my boil volume.Should I be adding acid or something to this water?thanks Kevin

While I cant say this with 100% certainty I sincerely dont think you need to acidify that sparge water. Its a low volume relative to your grain and more importantly it has zero buffering power to resist pH drop. Maybe someone else has different thoughts but I just dont see much potential for tannin extraction there.

#19 mabrungard

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 02:08 PM

Yes, you will definitely want to acidify that sparging water to reduce the alkalinity. It could easily cause a problem near the end of sparging and extract tannins and silicates. 

 

Morty, the latest version of Bru'n Water does include a feature to calculate the effect of adding all the minerals to the mash. But in the case of the Pale Ale profile, I'm concerned that the large amount of Ca and Mg would drive the pH down too far. Not a good goal. That technique can be pretty useful in other more modest water profiles.



#20 darkmagneto

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Posted 17 April 2015 - 03:14 PM

Yes, you will definitely want to acidify that sparging water to reduce the alkalinity. It could easily cause a problem near the end of sparging and extract tannins and silicates. 

 

Morty, the latest version of Bru'n Water does include a feature to calculate the effect of adding all the minerals to the mash. But in the case of the Pale Ale profile, I'm concerned that the large amount of Ca and Mg would drive the pH down too far. Not a good goal. That technique can be pretty useful in other more modest water profiles.

 

Thanks for the feedback Martin!  Would you suggest having some minerals to the mash, then acidify the sparge, then add the rest of the gypsum to the boil?




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