29 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

So I had this helles on tap recently and the keg just kicked a week or so ago. That beer was made in November, allowed to ferment, rest and lager awhile before it got to the tap. Not long after that I made the Pivo Pils recipe which is now on tap. I think I mentioned at the time that the helles was outstanding. Like one of the best beers I have ever made in 15 years. This Pivo Pils beer is very good and I'm happy with how it came out but there is something slightly off about it and it seemed to me that it didn't have the same *SNAP* to it. I went and checked my notes and compared the two. The SRM was about the same... 4. On the helles, it shows that I added about 2ml of acid to the mash and came in around 5.2 on mash pH. My notes also show that my old meter was acting up that day. I also show that I added around 2ml to the sparge. On the Pivo, I show that I added about 1.5ml of acid to the mash, came in at 5.3 and considered it good. I also added 1.5ml to the sparge and my old meter showed that I had gotten the sparge pH down to 5.4 which I considered good. So I may have used an additional 1ml of acid in the helles than I did in the Pivo. I think that small detail has the ability to make a big difference in the beer. I have also considered just adding maybe ¾ or 1ml of acid to the keg of Pivo to see what it does. I probably went lower on acid on the second beer because I have been in the habit of adding "less" and if I need more, I can add it but I can't take it out if I add too much. My old meter was also notoriously futzy so it may have shown that all was good. My new meter seems to be more reliable and consistent.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 26 April 2015 - 06:47 PM.

[neddles]

I think you're probably onto something. In beers like the ones you have there I would bet the additional 1ml of acid could make a noticeable difference. If you add the acid to the keg please tell us what you find.

 

Does anyone know if professional breweries adjust the pH of the final product to a to get a consistent product before packaging?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Interesting, I'm looking forward to hearing about the results.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

You could try it by the glass. 1 ml in 5 gallons is 1 to 18927. Dilute 1 ml of lactic into 100 ml of water. Adding 1 ml of dilution to 189 ml (6.4 oz) of beer should be the same ratio if my math is right.

[Big Nake]

I think you're probably onto something. In beers like the ones you have there I would bet the additional 1ml of acid could make a noticeable difference. If you add the acid to the keg please tell us what you find. Does anyone know if professional breweries adjust the pH of the final product to a to get a consistent product before packaging?

My guess is that a recipe is set up to get the right results from the start and that acid or acid malt is used in certain levels so that when the beer is done, the pH is where the brewer wants it. I suppose that acid could be added to finished products to ensure the pH is right but I would think that would rather take care of that during production. Also, we had a conversation about this awhile back and someone (Denny?) commented saying that ales are often at a lower pH than lagers and that various factors (kettle pH, IBUs, strain of yeast) dictate the final pH of a beer and that brewers should not be trying to guide that pH... it is supposed to just happen naturally. I wish I could find that thread but I'll just say that I'm not sure I understand that concept. Clearly if I got a beer's mash pH to 5.2, the sparge pH to 5.3 and the overall kettle pH was 5.25 or something... that beer will be different than one with a mash pH of 5.4, a sparge pH of 5.8 and a kettle pH of 5.6. I seem to favor beers with a lower final pH and I posted that once when I decided to take the pH of finished beers (I can't find THAT thread either) and some like Stiegl and even Pacifico had a lower pH. I don't think I could ruin this beer by adding one milliliter of acid to the keg so I might try it.Oh, I did find THE THREAD where I took the pH of finished beers and in the first post, there are links to two other threads. I didn't read through those but I'm going to shortly. Just chalk all of this up to "Ken is looking at the fine details" again.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 27 April 2015 - 06:30 AM.

[denny]

I think it has more to do with color, Ken. IIRC, Martin has talked about lighter beers benefiting from a lower pH than darker ones.

[Big Nake]

At some point this morning I went down to the beer bunker, disconnected and opened up this keg and measured out somewhere between ½ and ¾ml of lactic acid and dropped it into the keg of PivoPils (Yes, I dropped acid). I did not swirl the keg, mix it up or anything else. I put it back in there and just tapped a glass of it. It's better and I can notice the snappier character of the beer as a result of it. My guess is that a brewer can go too far with this as well which suggests that there is a kill-zone for this type of adjustment. It makes the beer much more refreshing and delicious... at least to my tastebuds.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 27 April 2015 - 03:29 PM.

[neddles]

At some point this morning I went down to the beer bunker, disconnected and opened up this keg and measured out somewhere between ½ and ¾ml of lactic acid and dropped it into the keg of PivoPils (Yes, I dropped acid). I did not swirl the keg, mix it up or anything else. I put it back in there and just tapped a glass of it. It's better and I can notice the snappier character of the beer as a result of it. My guess is that a brewer can go too far with this as well which suggests that there is a kill-zone for this type of adjustment. It makes the beer much more refreshing and delicious... at least to my tastebuds.

Warm a sample up and check the pH for future reference.

[Big Nake]

Warm a sample up and check the pH for future reference.

Good idea.As much as I would love to have a detailed recipe for a certain beer which would outline every last detail of the beer, the truth is that variables in the water and the grain used will make it so that adjustments would have to be made on the fly. Also (and as I have mentioned many times), reliability of your instruments would be a must in this case. Notes that I have from 2014 are fine except that I was using my old, quirky meter so I have to take all of that into account. I am humbled by homebrewing once again.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 27 April 2015 - 03:54 PM.

[Big Nake]

In the interest of science and with nettles suggestion, I took 4 of these small, tapered glasses I have and I poured a small amount of beer into each one about 90 minutes ago. In one I put some of my Pivo Pils clone and then I poured small amounts of Pacifico, Stiegl and as I rooted around in my fridge for another gold lager, I found a bottle of Coors Light that my sister probably left here. They sat at room temp but I cannot confirm their overall temp or their carb level at the time of measuring the pH so take it for what it's worth...My version of Pivo Pils: 4.39Pacifico: 4.15Stiegl Goldbrau: 4.30Coors Light: 4.21This meter of mine (Omega) seems to be very accurate and reliable so I'm hoping that the "pH meter" part of this is acceptable. Pacifico has always been a beer that always seemed very bright and snappy to me... even before I considered homebrewing, the effects of pH and all of that. It's very crisp and snappy. My beer seemed to come close to Stiegl which is okay by me. Not sure why the Coors Light is the lowest of these but I'll admit that I have not consumed a Coors Light in many years so I have no idea what it tastes like.

[bigdaddyale]

https://discussions....f-finished-beer

[Big Nake]

https://discussions....f-finished-beer

Interesting that you would see that on the probrewer forum and also interesting to hear of someone on that board having trouble with their meter. I posted about this in the German Brewing group on FB and there were a number of people already tuned into this as well as others who said they were going to watch it more closely. Martin commented that the lactic acid could adjust the flavor profile in the beer but not in a very noticeable way... he referred to it as nuance which is a good description. Personally I think that in the past even when I made a beer in these styles that I considered to be "pretty good", there was still something missing from it and I may have just shrugged and said, "That's the difference between a beer made by a hobbyist and one made by a trained commercial brewer". This little detail has a big impact on my tastebuds and it will be a permanent part of my brewing strategy going forward. Cheers Beerheads.

[positiveContact]

it's hard to argue with results.  I know that my light lagers will get pushed towards 5.2 instead of 5.3 in the mash from now on.

[Big Nake]

httpss://www.facebook.com/download/1404461799855110/SteveHolle_GermanBrewing.pdfI'm not sure if the above link will do what I want but it's to a PDF with some information on it and I can't really verify the source but page 35 has some information on it regarding pH and it suggests that the mash pH is the least concern. I think the mash pH is supposed to help with good yield and conversion but I don't think it needs to be overly precise. Sparge pH can be critical if the pH of the sparge water is too high and this overall flavor component that I'm referring to probably comes in somewhere preboil, post-boil, etc. I am going to approach it like... mash pH 5.2, sparge pH in the mid 5s and preboil wort/kettle pH of between those two points... the closer it is to 5.2, the more of this *SNAP* you'll get and the higher it is, the more likely you are to have a flat-tasting beer.

[HVB]

httpss://www.facebook.com/download/1404461799855110/SteveHolle_GermanBrewing.pdfI'm not sure if the above link will do what I want but it's to a PDF with some information on it and I can't really verify the source but page 35 has some information on it regarding pH and it suggests that the mash pH is the least concern. I think the mash pH is supposed to help with good yield and conversion but I don't think it needs to be overly precise. Sparge pH can be critical if the pH of the sparge water is too high and this overall flavor component that I'm referring to probably comes in somewhere preboil, post-boil, etc. I am going to approach it like... mash pH 5.2, sparge pH in the mid 5s and preboil wort/kettle pH of between those two points... the closer it is to 5.2, the more of this *SNAP* you'll get and the higher it is, the more likely you are to have a flat-tasting beer.

Page not found for me

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Ken- is this what you were posting?https://www.ahaconfe...rmanBrewing.pdf

[positiveContact]

httpss://www.facebook.com/download/1404461799855110/SteveHolle_GermanBrewing.pdfI'm not sure if the above link will do what I want but it's to a PDF with some information on it and I can't really verify the source but page 35 has some information on it regarding pH and it suggests that the mash pH is the least concern. I think the mash pH is supposed to help with good yield and conversion but I don't think it needs to be overly precise. Sparge pH can be critical if the pH of the sparge water is too high and this overall flavor component that I'm referring to probably comes in somewhere preboil, post-boil, etc. I am going to approach it like... mash pH 5.2, sparge pH in the mid 5s and preboil wort/kettle pH of between those two points... the closer it is to 5.2, the more of this *SNAP* you'll get and the higher it is, the more likely you are to have a flat-tasting beer.

 

in my case the mash pH should make a big difference.  typically I make 10 gallon batches and only sparge with 2 gallons of water.  that means I have a lot of liquid at my mash pH and only a little at my sparge pH which will generally be a lower pH than most people b/c I'm sparging a bunch of grain with a relatively small amount of water.  on top of this my water is low in bicarb.

[Big Nake]

Page not found for me

When I click on this, I get a window at the bottom of the screen asking if I want to run or save the document.

Ken- is this what you were posting?https://www.ahaconfe...rmanBrewing.pdf

Yes, same sheet. I have not read through the whole thing yet but our group was concentrating on page 35 because of the pH information. I plan to look at the rest of it shortly.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 30 April 2015 - 10:21 AM.

[positiveContact]

so how are the german brewers addressing pH in the sparge and kettle?  I assumed most of them wouldn't be allowed to use lactic acid.  In the past I was under the impression if you had reasonable water getting the mash pH right was a pretty good indicator that your beer pH was going to land in the right place.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Damn it Ken, now I'm gonna have to break out the PH meter again.