28 replies to this topic

[SchwanzBrewer]

All the literature I've read says to measure the PH and make adjustments at room temperature. For the brewery we will have hot water on demand. I'll be able to dial in a temperature and sparge directly from the source without having an HLT. This speeds things up in the brew house considerably. I'll have to make adjustments for PH in the mash tun as the sparge continues. I'm guessing some sort of drip system would be necessary to continuously add acid to the mash per so many gallons of water flowing during the sparge. Basically drip acid into the mash and base it on the flow rate of the sparge water.

 

I could buy an HLT, but who wants to spend thousands on an HLT that is essentially just going to be a holding tank when no heating is required? Not this guy.

 

Aside from that, some PH meters (mine) are temperature adjusting having a thermometer that works in the temperature in the calculation. So why do all the things I've read say to make the PH adjustments at room temp? I'll be honest, I've never taken a reading at room temp, it's always pre sparge when the water is hot. What might the likely faults be by doing this method? Am I risking raising the PH too much or lowering it too much? The meter says the PH is where it's supposed to be. I'm not sure how this could be a bad thing.

 

Sorry for the stream of consciousness here.

 

Cheers.

[Steve Urquell]

Most of the water and brew science gurus concede that checking at mash temp will shorten the life of your pH meters' probe.From Kaiser:In short:- don’t test at mash temp since this shortens the life of your pH meter probe- the room temp to mash temp pH shift is more like 0.2 than 0.35- Mash pH optima are generally reported as room temp pH values and by comparing them to room temp measurements you remove the ambiguity.- A correct room temp mash target range is 5.3 – 5.6 with the boundaries being quite fuzzy. I.e 5.2 and 5.7 should work too.- Don’t worry what the actual mash temp pH values are.

Edited by chils, 30 April 2015 - 03:43 PM.

[Big Nake]

When I take any pH reading, the sample has been cooled to "around" room temp. I have a small metal bowl that I freeze into a larger bowl so the smaller bowl in encased in ice. It takes about 30-45 seconds to get a mash, sparge or kettle sample to 65-70° and then I take the temp. If that pH reading shows 5.2, is my "hot" material at 5.2? The temp swings and adjustments have always confused me mildly.

[neddles]

Inquire with JKor. He has found what is, according to him, a pH meter/probe that is relatively inexpensive and will do a continuous pH measurement for him. Additionally he says the probe is good to 100C. Might be worth looking into.

https://www.brews-br...pr0n/?p=1998839

[Brauer]

What Chills said.  

 

pH changes with temperature, but recommended pHs were determined from pH taken at RT. So, if you use a meter to adjust the pH hot, to the recommended pH for RT, you won't actually be at the recommended pH. Instead, you'll probably be about 0.3 pH higher than you think. You can adjust for that, of course.

[SchwanzBrewer]

What Chills said.  

 

pH changes with temperature, but recommended pHs were determined from pH taken at RT. So, if you use a meter to adjust the pH hot, to the recommended pH for RT, you won't actually be at the recommended pH. Instead, you'll probably be about 0.3 pH higher than you think. You can adjust for that, of course.

 

But the PH meter is temperature compensating already. The mash is hot, the sparge is hot. Why would it matter what the room temperature PH is? The enzymes are acting at hot temperatures, not room temperatures. If the PH is 5.2 @ 150 degrees then that's what the PH is for the mash. Who cares what the RT PH is, right? 

[mabrungard]

I can see that someone doesn't know that temperature compensation in a pH meter only corrects for the METER's response. It does not correct for the change in pH due to the effect on chemistry. So a temperature compensating meter will still need a correction factor. 

 

Unless someone is specifying a very specialized high-temp pH probe, I've not seen one that quotes a 100C recommended limit. I've seen 80C limits, but those are on special probes too. At the hobbyist level, they are often limited to 60C or thereabouts. More importantly, its not the max temperature that kills probes. It's the change from cold to hot to cold that kills them. So if you will be keeping the probe at 70C for its whole life, then it should provide a somewhat decent life. It might become a bit costly to keep that probe warmed in those periods that you aren't brewing, though. For most people, keeping the probe at room temp and going through the (apparently) royal PITA to cool the wort sample is a more reasonable way to go. Another good thing about resorting to room temperature measurement is that there is a decent knowledge base for beer pH at room temp.

 

While I would love to stick my probe in something hot and wet, I think I'm better off at room temperature.  

[SchwanzBrewer]

So I should make adjustments, take a sample, cool to room temp, test it, adjust if needed.

 

The sparge will still be a giant pain to deal with because I can't treat a whole batch of sparge water and you are continuously rinsing the grain and changing the PH.

Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 01 May 2015 - 10:38 AM.

[mabrungard]

What scale is your brewing? I notice you mention not wanting to spend thousands on a HLT.

 

My HLT is my kettle that is sitting empty while I'm mashing and it only takes 15 min to heat a batch of sparging water. I then transfer the hot water to a bucket that is used to meter the hot water onto the mash. Treating a whole batch of sparging water is easy with this approach. 

Edited by mabrungard, 01 May 2015 - 10:45 AM.

[Murphy]

if your probe has an ATC you will get accurate readings up to a certain temp, usually 50-70C depending upon the probe

[SchwanzBrewer]

What scale is your brewing? I notice you mention not wanting to spend thousands on a HLT.

 

My HLT is my kettle that is sitting empty while I'm mashing and it only takes 15 min to heat a batch of sparging water. I then transfer the hot water to a bucket that is used to meter the hot water onto the mash. Treating a whole batch of sparging water is easy with this approach. 

 

I'm starting a brewery. I won't have an HLT, I'll have hot water on demand up to 185 degrees. I'll be able to sparge/mash in without an hlt. So I'll need to figure out some way to keep sparge PH down via an acid drip. I'll know the flow rate of the sparge and I'll figure the amount of acid needed for that flow rate to maintain PH.

 

I just need to make sure my measurements are right.

[Brauer]

I'm starting a brewery. I won't have an HLT, I'll have hot water on demand up to 185 degrees. I'll be able to sparge/mash in without an hlt. So I'll need to figure out some way to keep sparge PH down via an acid drip. I'll know the flow rate of the sparge and I'll figure the amount of acid needed for that flow rate to maintain PH.I just need to make sure my measurements are right.

It's possible you might get correct reading at temp, it's just that your target will be moving with temp. As you now know, temp compensation doesn't corect for that. I suppose you could just live with a short-lived probe.All things considered, you might want to batch sparge. Then you could add the acid and then the water. After a few batches, you should know how much acid to add.Alternately, consider cold sparging.

[SchwanzBrewer]

It's possible you might get correct reading at temp, it's just that your target will be moving with temp. As you now know, temp compensation doesn't corect for that. I suppose you could just live with a short-lived probe.All things considered, you might want to batch sparge. Then you could add the acid and then the water. After a few batches, you should know how much acid to add.Alternately, consider cold sparging.

 

I'm pretty sure batch sparging would kill my efficiency. This is for a business so that has to be a consideration now.

[Brauer]

I'm pretty sure batch sparging would kill my efficiency. This is for a business so that has to be a consideration now.

It might be an efficiency trade for astringency problem. A lot of pro brewers seem to be having a problem with controlling astringency, and I stop buying their products when they do.

 

What efficiency do you get from a fly sparge?

[SchwanzBrewer]

It might be an efficiency trade for astringency problem. A lot of pro brewers seem to be having a problem with controlling astringency, and I stop buying their products when they do.

 

What efficiency do you get from a fly sparge?

 

I've never had an astringency problem. Fly sparging is easy and I try to control my PH for the sparge on the pilot system (I can treat the whole batch there).

 

I'm usually around 82% brew house on the pilot (1 bbl). But I'm moving up to at least 5bbl (hopefully more) when we get a place. It's just not efficient to batch sparge with those scales. There's too many trade offs to be made that have costs associated with them that don't make sense.

 

I could see if a brewer tries to stretch their system efficiency they could end up getting astringency in their beer.  With over 3000  breweries now not all will be good. I'm dead set on not being part of that group.

[Brauer]

I've never had an astringency problem. Fly sparging is easy and I try to control my PH for the sparge on the pilot system (I can treat the whole batch there).I'm usually around 82% brew house on the pilot (1 bbl). But I'm moving up to at least 5bbl (hopefully more) when we get a place. It's just not efficient to batch sparge with those scales. There's too many trade offs to be made that have costs associated with them that don't make sense.I could see if a brewer tries to stretch their system efficiency they could end up getting astringency in their beer. With over 3000 breweries now not all will be good. I'm dead set on not being part of that group.

Fullers seems to manage okay with it.I just mentioned as a possible solution to your particular problem, though. I do wish that fewer breweries had astringency problems. It seems rather rampant in the US, at the moment. It makes me wonder if there are some common technical problems in US breweries or with US malts. It can be tough to easily detect, though, when so many beers are over-bittered in an attempt to make them hoppy. Of course that just adds even more astringency.Cavman and I were just talking, Saturday, about how we've both stopped buying one of my favorite beers (a local Alt) because multiple batches were oppressively tanic.

[HVB]

Fullers seems to manage okay with it.I just mentioned as a possible solution to your particular problem, though.I do wish that fewer breweries had astringency problems. It seems rather rampant in the US, at the moment. It makes me wonder if there are some common technical problems in US breweries or with US malts. It can be tough to easily detect, though, when so many beers are over-bittered in an attempt to make them hoppy. Of course that just adds even more astringency.Cavman and I were just talking, Saturday, about how we've both stopped buying one of my favorite beers (a local Alt) because multiple batches were oppressively tanic.

 

Can you let me know what one?  A PM is fine if you wish to not disclose it here.

 

Thanks

[Brauer]

Can you let me know what one?  A PM is fine if you wish to not disclose it here.

 

Thanks

I suppose it's not really that local: Tuckermann. Hopefully they've fixed it, but after being burnt a few times, I just can't bring myself to get it. Too bad, it was one of my favorite "locals", so I hate to slam them.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Wow. I've never brewed a tannic beer and I've made alt a couple times now on the 1bbl. I'm making it in a week or two.

 

I'd guess they don't have good temperature control on their sparge or they are over sparging the living hell out of the mash and trying to extract every last bit of sugar.

 

Small breweries should be about quality not quantity. That means slightly more expensive batches. I'm just trying to avoid having to buy more expensive equipment.

[neddles]

Fullers seems to manage okay with it.I just mentioned as a possible solution to your particular problem, though. I do wish that fewer breweries had astringency problems. It seems rather rampant in the US, at the moment. It makes me wonder if there are some common technical problems in US breweries or with US malts. It can be tough to easily detect, though, when so many beers are over-bittered in an attempt to make them hoppy. Of course that just adds even more astringency.Cavman and I were just talking, Saturday, about how we've both stopped buying one of my favorite beers (a local Alt) because multiple batches were oppressively tanic.

Listening to various interviews and podcasts I have heard more than one professional brewer say they "dont really worry about their water" or "We havent really gotten into the whole water thing yet" Thats probably where some of this is coming from.