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I guess I need to look into a "Session IPA" recipe...


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#1 Big Nake

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 05:14 PM

I was down in Bloomington, IN helping my daughter move out of her dorm yesterday. She had one last final to take so I went over to a brewery I had heard of... Upland Brewing Company. They have a nice biergarten outside (which was packed) so I went inside and sat at the bar. I had something called Helios Pale Ale which was tasty and when I asked about a beer I saw a lot of people drinking, the beertender told me that it was their Campside Session IPA. It was gold... 4.5 SRM according to their site. It was also 4.5%. Their site says that 75% of the hops used in the recipe "are added after the boil" which probably suggests whirlpooling and dry hopping. It also says that the beer features "grapefruit, apricot and pine" characters. I get Amarillo and Simcoe from that but I'm not sure what they're referring to with apricot. Anyone have a guess? The beer was 50 IBUs and it was outstanding. Clear, gold, balanced but clearly centered on hop flavor and aroma. Oh, their site also said something about using "light malts" which is clear because the beer was so pale. Anyone ever have this beer?Upland Brewing Company - Campside Session IPA

#2 neddles

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 07:16 PM

Sounds like a tasty beer. Have not had it but my brother brought several sours from Upland with him last week on a visit. Very enjoyable.

 

Also, I have gotten apricot/peach from Amarillo when used in moderate doses.



#3 Big Nake

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Posted 08 May 2015 - 08:07 PM

I sent them a "contact" message and asked if they would share anything about the recipe. I have all the faith in the world regarding this method of getting information because it's almost always successful. It's rare that you get nothing or a flat-out rejection. I will be happy to share any information I receive and post a recipe of what I plan to do. I wonder if this could be 50% 2-row and 50% wheat and then just to figure out the hopping. Very nice beer and something that I know I would drink and I know my wife would like it too.

#4 Big Nake

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 06:57 AM

I'm going to wait to see if I hear back from these guys but in the meantime I'm going to turn this into a recipe thread. This was a very pale beer and since wheat has snuck into so many other hoppy recipes (to my surprise), I wonder if this thing could be 50% 2-row pale malt and 50% wheat. Hop it up front with Amarillo like I did with the Chilly Water batch in the recipe section, hit it with Amarillo again at 10 minutes, an ounce of Amarillo and Simcoe in a 20-30 minute whirlpool and then an ounce of each as a dry hop. I would have to pick up the hops because I only have an ounce of each and as a result I don't know the IBUs of all of this. Something about a clear, gold beer with that much grapefruit & pine character was really good, I confess. I also have a pack of 1056 ready to roll too so I may give this one a whirl.

#5 neddles

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 08:30 AM

Looks like their beer goes 1.045--->1.011 @ 4.5%abv.  or 74% attenuation. On my system, if I were to use WY1056 with that grist and gravity I would need a pretty high mash temp or carapils to keep the attenuation that low. Also for an SRM of 4.5 they must have a little of something else in there too. Maybe a carahell/caravienne light crystal malt or something?



#6 Big Nake

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 11:08 AM

Looks like their beer goes 1.045--->1.011 @ 4.5%abv.  or 74% attenuation. On my system, if I were to use WY1056 with that grist and gravity I would need a pretty high mash temp or carapils to keep the attenuation that low. Also for an SRM of 4.5 they must have a little of something else in there too. Maybe a carahell/caravienne light crystal malt or something?

I was thinking about something else in the grist but I would be using Rahr Pale Ale malt which has some color to it. I have never made a beer with 100% Rahr Pale Ale malt but if I did I think the SRM would actually be in the 5-6 SRM range. It's definitely darker than something like Canada Malting 2-row, for example. But a smidge of CaraHell, CaraFoam or Carapils would probably be a good idea anyway. As for the mash temp... I'm not well-versed on the impact on the mashing schedule based on how hoppy the beer is. Does increased IBUs mean increased mash temp? This particular beer was well-balanced and it seemed to finish dry but with all those late hops, that seems obvious. I am in deep water when it comes to styles like this so I'm feeling around in the dark a bit. It would be cool if someone at Upland emailed me back with some specifics.

#7 neddles

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 11:35 AM

I was thinking about something else in the grist but I would be using Rahr Pale Ale malt which has some color to it. I have never made a beer with 100% Rahr Pale Ale malt but if I did I think the SRM would actually be in the 5-6 SRM range. It's definitely darker than something like Canada Malting 2-row, for example. But a smidge of CaraHell, CaraFoam or Carapils would probably be a good idea anyway. As for the mash temp... I'm not well-versed on the impact on the mashing schedule based on how hoppy the beer is. Does increased IBUs mean increased mash temp? This particular beer was well-balanced and it seemed to finish dry but with all those late hops, that seems obvious. I am in deep water when it comes to styles like this so I'm feeling around in the dark a bit. It would be cool if someone at Upland emailed me back with some specifics.

Not that I know of. I am not familiar with what you are talking about either. Never heard of that, really. What I was getting at was at that gravity and 1056 you are going to drive that FG pretty low, which may be your goal. But to get something near the 1.011 the brewery gets I would need to mash pretty hot on my system. Even more so if there are not crystal or dextrin malts in the grist.

 

Rahr pale ale is a nice malt and I would like it in something like this. If you went with 2-row Pale instead of Pale Ale Malt then maybe a touch of victory 3 or 4 or 5 ozs. would get you the color and a bit of character too.



#8 Big Nake

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 12:37 PM

I was referring to the idea that a highly hopped beer may need more maltiness or sweetness to counter the hops. I'm not saying that this is a thing but I am wondering about it because I don't make IPAs. Asking someone where they might mash on an IPA may not answer the question because every system and everyone's processes are different. Do people mash a little higher when they make a highly-hopped beer? I dunno.

#9 HVB

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 01:04 PM

Ken, I mash my happy beers between 148-152 and most of these are with S-05. I like the idea of some caravienne in there. I have more thoughts to add when I am not posting from my phone.

#10 neddles

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 04:01 PM

I was referring to the idea that a highly hopped beer may need more maltiness or sweetness to counter the hops. I'm not saying that this is a thing but I am wondering about it because I don't make IPAs. Asking someone where they might mash on an IPA may not answer the question because every system and everyone's processes are different. Do people mash a little higher when they make a highly-hopped beer? I dunno.

I get it now. I think its probably really a matter of personal taste with whatever you are trying to create. Commercial IPS finish all over the map from bone dry to thick and heavy.



#11 Big Nake

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 07:06 PM

I get it now. I think its probably really a matter of personal taste with whatever you are trying to create. Commercial IPS finish all over the map from bone dry to thick and heavy.

I assume you're right on some IPAs being lighter and drier and some being heavier. This commercial beer was basically like an uber-hopped blonde ale. That's the vision I have of this beer. I wouldn't call it "thin" but it was not heavy, sweet, etc. It was balanced and hoppy and my guess is that a higher mash temp would not be necessary. US05 likes to chew through gravity and create a dry beer so if I were using US05 I might mash a smidge higher to keep the beer from being overly dry. But I'm comfortable enough with 1056 that I know what it will do, I think. This could be a very fun project and a trip to the LHBS is where I will start. Cheers.

#12 neddles

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Posted 10 May 2015 - 07:51 PM

Let us know what you come up with for a final recipe



#13 Brauer

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 09:40 AM

Current thinking on IPAs is light and dry, lower IBUs than the old days, replaced with lots of flavor hops. That works well with drier beers, which don't carry IBUs as well. The old thinking was to up the sweetness then crank the IBUs as high as you could go. That led to clashing hop and malt flavors and smothered hop flavor. That's been mostly abandoned, except in legacy recipes, for the lighter, drier, less bitter approach of Vermont style IPAs, at least around here.

#14 Big Nake

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 12:02 PM

Current thinking on IPAs is light and dry, lower IBUs than the old days, replaced with lots of flavor hops. That works well with drier beers, which don't carry IBUs as well.The old thinking was to up the sweetness then crank the IBUs as high as you could go. That led to clashing hop and malt flavors and smothered hop flavor. That's been mostly abandoned, except in legacy recipes, for the lighter, drier, less bitter approach of Vermont style IPAs, at least around here.

That's a good description of what I had... lighter, drier, lots of late hops. I will share what I find out and if the brewery decides not to reply at all, I'll just wing it based on what I outlined earlier. Pale color (5 SRM or so), Amarillo & Simcoe, 50 IBUs or so.

#15 HVB

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 12:09 PM

 A place near me does a hoppy blonde ale that is very refreshing but I do not feel like paying the $3.25/can price tag.  I am going to be throwing a batch together soon to try and mimic what they are doing.  My plan is to go 88% Two row and 13% wheat and just have a FWH or 60 minute addition to about 25-30 IBU and throw a nice charge in the whirlpool and then a healthy dry hop.  The one aspect that will be out of my normal process is I plan to bring my Cl level up to try and give the beer a more "rounded" finish.  I am still undecided if I will go with S-05 or S-04 but I expect it to be a easy drinker ready in 2 weeks.


Edited by drez77, 11 May 2015 - 12:09 PM.


#16 Big Nake

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 12:17 PM

A place near me does a hoppy blonde ale that is very refreshing but I do not feel like paying the $3.25/can price tag.  I am going to be throwing a batch together soon to try and mimic what they are doing.  My plan is to go 88% Two row and 13% wheat and just have a FWH or 60 minute addition to about 25-30 IBU and throw a nice charge in the whirlpool and then a healthy dry hop.  The one aspect that will be out of my normal process is I plan to bring my Cl level up to try and give the beer a more "rounded" finish.  I am still undecided if I will go with S-05 or S-04 but I expect it to be a easy drinker ready in 2 weeks.

You bring up another point: Sulfate and chloride numbers. When I make a "gold beer", I usually leave my sulfates lower but I'm talking about things like helles, pils, kolsch, etc. For a 'session IPA' or hoppy blonde ale, should I be trying to get my sulfate level higher? What ppm would you bring your chloride and sulfate to for a style like this? This is another place where I am in deep water because I don't make this style and my sulfate and chloride numbers are usually in the 40-70ppm range.

#17 HVB

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 12:43 PM

You bring up another point: Sulfate and chloride numbers. When I make a "gold beer", I usually leave my sulfates lower but I'm talking about things like helles, pils, kolsch, etc. For a 'session IPA' or hoppy blonde ale, should I be trying to get my sulfate level higher? What ppm would you bring your chloride and sulfate to for a style like this? This is another place where I am in deep water because I don't make this style and my sulfate and chloride numbers are usually in the 40-70ppm range.

For my typical APA I shoot for SO4 of 190 and Cl of 64.  For what I am calling the hoppy blond I am shooting for 85 on both.



#18 Big Nake

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 01:12 PM

For my typical APA I shoot for SO4 of 190 and Cl of 64.  For what I am calling the hoppy blond I am shooting for 85 on both.

Seems reasonable. For a session IPA with an SRM of 5, would you suggest something where the sulfate was in the 85ppm range and the chlorides a little lower to accentuate the hops and crispness of the beer? For some reason, I have a mental block on where higher levels of sulfate are applicable and where they are not. I understand that hoppier beers benefit from higher sulfates but do SRM and sulfate levels have a connection? Should you be careful with sulfate on lighter-colored beers because it stands out more, makes the beer too harsh, etc? I'm fuzzy on that again... because I don't make styles like this and never bring these numbers up.

#19 neddles

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 01:40 PM

On my latest APA I reversed course. Ca-120, Na-8, SO4-90, Cl-151

The beer is not sweet in the least and I think I am liking the lack of sulphate better. I'll need to go back up to 250ppm or so with the sulphate at some point to get a good comparison. Anyhow I do think I am getting a softer feel to the beer. I hope I can explain this well….It's not any thicker or smoother in mouthfeel but the carbonation feels softer less bitey and kinda floaty and mouth-filling to me. I like it, but it would still be a fine beer without it. I may go up to 175-200 Cl on my next one to see what I get.


Edited by nettles, 11 May 2015 - 01:41 PM.


#20 Big Nake

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Posted 11 May 2015 - 01:57 PM

On my latest APA I reversed course. Ca-120, Na-8, SO4-90, Cl-151The beer is not sweet in the least and I think I am liking the lack of sulphate better. I'll need to go back up to 250ppm or so with the sulphate at some point to get a good comparison. Anyhow I do think I am getting a softer feel to the beer. I hope I can explain this well….It's not any thicker or smoother in mouthfeel but the carbonation feels softer less bitey and kinda floaty and mouth-filling to me. I like it, but it would still be a fine beer without it. I may go up to 175-200 Cl on my next one to see what I get.

Very interesting. I have not had the huevos to experiment too much with high levels of anything. Instead of going higher or lower, instead I stay in the same area but I change the ratio. Both numbers may be between 20ppm and 70ppm but the balance may shift from side to side. Some of these APAs and session IPAs seem to have a very nice, taste bud-kicking punch to them which I'm sure is hops but my guess is that it's hops combined with enough sulfate to sharpen the bite a little bit. I think I may be onto something with these beers because many IPAs of yesterday (as Drez mentioned) were really big and malty, sweet, hoppy and just came across as clunky to me. These drier ones seem to work better for me. They're cleaner, snappier and more refreshing.


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