99 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

 A place near me does a hoppy blonde ale that is very refreshing but I do not feel like paying the $3.25/can price tag.  I am going to be throwing a batch together soon to try and mimic what they are doing.  My plan is to go 88% Two row and 13% wheat and just have a FWH or 60 minute addition to about 25-30 IBU and throw a nice charge in the whirlpool and then a healthy dry hop.  The one aspect that will be out of my normal process is I plan to bring my Cl level up to try and give the beer a more "rounded" finish.  I am still undecided if I will go with S-05 or S-04 but I expect it to be a easy drinker ready in 2 weeks.

Have you tried Wormtown's Hop Rocket Pale Ale? Might be one of the hopiest, but balanced beer I've ever had.

 

Is the reason that you would favor putting Wheat Malt, in beers like this, to mute the malt flavor? I haven't used Wheat Malt in a long time, because Wheat Malt never seemed to have much malt flavor, on it's own, so I stopped using it. But I can see using Wheat Malt if you want the malt flavor to get out of the way.

[Brauer]

Have you tried Wormtown's Hop Rocket Pale Ale? Might be one of the hopiest, but balanced beer I've ever had.

 

Is the reason that you would favor putting Wheat Malt, in beers like this, to mute the malt flavor? I haven't used Wheat Malt in a long time, because Wheat Malt never seemed to have much malt flavor, on it's own, so I stopped using it. But I can see using Wheat Malt if you want the malt flavor to get out of the way.

I meant Bottle Rocket, from Wormtown.

[neddles]

Have you tried Wormtown's Hop Rocket Pale Ale? Might be one of the hopiest, but balanced beer I've ever had.Is the reason that you would favor putting Wheat Malt, in beers like this, to mute the malt flavor? I haven't used Wheat Malt in a long time, because Wheat Malt never seemed to have much malt flavor, on it's own, so I stopped using it. But I can see using Wheat Malt if you want the malt flavor to get out of the way.

Agreed. Wheat, for me, is usually about the removal of malt flavor.

[Big Nake]

This is great stuff guys. I am going to school on this style based on what you guys have sampled commercially and what you have brewed. Using wheat to lighten the malt character seems in line with this beer I had last week. Light, crisp, hoppy, refreshing.

[Bklmt2000]

To me, IPA, regardless if session-strength (~4.5-5%) or a more "normal" strength (6-8%), should always be a fairly dry beer.

 

Not necessarily saison-dry, per se, but an obviously malty/sweet IPA is a flawed IPA, in my book.

 

Just my opinion, i'm no expert.

[Big Nake]

... i'm no expert.

You are to me. I have never made an IPA in 15+ years.

[Bklmt2000]

No time like the present, Ken, to remedy that. 

[matt6150]

To me, IPA, regardless if session-strength (~4.5-5%) or a more "normal" strength (6-8%), should always be a fairly dry beer.Not necessarily saison-dry, per se, but an obviously malty/sweet IPA is a flawed IPA, in my book.Just my opinion, i'm no expert.

I agree with you. Unfortunately many beer judges do not. One reason I don't compete as much.

[HVB]

On my latest APA I reversed course. Ca-120, Na-8, SO4-90, Cl-151

The beer is not sweet in the least and I think I am liking the lack of sulphate better. I'll need to go back up to 250ppm or so with the sulphate at some point to get a good comparison. Anyhow I do think I am getting a softer feel to the beer. I hope I can explain this well….It's not any thicker or smoother in mouthfeel but the carbonation feels softer less bitey and kinda floaty and mouth-filling to me. I like it, but it would still be a fine beer without it. I may go up to 175-200 Cl on my next one to see what I get.

This is also something that I have planned to do after I am done with the "yeast trials."  Did you up the bitterness any at 60 to compensate for the higher Cl?  Also what yeast did you use?

[HVB]

Have you tried Wormtown's Hop Rocket Pale Ale? Might be one of the hopiest, but balanced beer I've ever had.

 

Is the reason that you would favor putting Wheat Malt, in beers like this, to mute the malt flavor? I haven't used Wheat Malt in a long time, because Wheat Malt never seemed to have much malt flavor, on it's own, so I stopped using it. But I can see using Wheat Malt if you want the malt flavor to get out of the way.

 

Agreed. Wheat, for me, is usually about the removal of malt flavor.

 

The reasons for the wheat are 1- I have over 100#'s I need to use it sometime and 2 - I recently did a clone for The Pupil Societe and that beer was just Two Row, Carapils and a large amount of wheat.  I really enjoyed that beer and want to try the large wheat amount in other hoppy beers.  I think your description of getting the malt flavor out of the way works well for the beer I am thinking of in my head.  As I am typing this out I am also thinking that rye may work for what the vision I have in my head.  

 

I have not had that Wormtown beer yet, Be Hoppy is the only one I really see around here.  Next time I had to Worcester I will have to look for it, thanks for the suggestion. 

 

 

To me, IPA, regardless if session-strength (~4.5-5%) or a more "normal" strength (6-8%), should always be a fairly dry beer.

 

Not necessarily saison-dry, per se, but an obviously malty/sweet IPA is a flawed IPA, in my book.

 

Just my opinion, i'm no expert.

 I also like my hoppy beers to finish dry, most below 1.010.  With that said I still like to have a beer with a softer mouthfeel where the beer is still dry but seems full.   Something very hard for me to describe if you have not had one of the beers from someone like Hill Farmstead, Treehouse of some of the others that are failing to come to my mind right now.

[Bklmt2000]

 I also like my hoppy beers to finish dry, most below 1.010.  With that said I still like to have a beer with a softer mouthfeel where the beer is still dry but seems full.  

My strictly amateur experience with this very issue:  An attenuative yeast, plus a chloride:sulfate ratio in favor of chloride, and a low-to-moderate mash temp, seems to provide this very thing. 

 

I can't give any better advice, (without knowing your water's composition), but maybe this might help you. 

[HVB]

My strictly amateur experience with this very issue: An attenuative yeast, plus a chloride:sulfate ratio in favor of chloride, and a low-to-moderate mash temp, seems to provide this very thing. I can't give any better advice, (without knowing your water's composition), but maybe this might help you.

Yes, that is very much what I plan to experiment with after I finish the yeast experiments. So many experiments so little time.

[Big Nake]

I hate to open this can of worms but is there a big difference between having the chloride at 50ppm and the sulfate at 50ppm or both at 150ppm? 250ppm? If they're balanced, does anything happen other than calcium increases?I'm slightly surprised to hear you guys say that the ratio should favor chloride. I would do this on beers where a smooth, rounded character is desired. I need to get out of my water neighborhood once in awhile. I'm used to what I know but there are other zip codes, clearly.

[neddles]

This is also something that I have planned to do after I am done with the "yeast trials."  Did you up the bitterness any at 60 to compensate for the higher Cl?  Also what yeast did you use?

I used US-05. I did not up the 60min. IBU addition. What about the increased Cl makes you think that might be necessary?

 

 I also like my hoppy beers to finish dry, most below 1.010.  With that said I still like to have a beer with a softer mouthfeel where the beer is still dry but seems full.   Something very hard for me to describe if you have not had one of the beers from someone like Hill Farmstead, Treehouse of some of the others that are failing to come to my mind right now.

Do you have any data on the FG of any of their beers? 

[neddles]

I hate to open this can of worms but is there a big difference between having the chloride at 50ppm and the sulfate at 50ppm or both at 150ppm? 250ppm? If they're balanced, does anything happen other than calcium increases?I'm slightly surprised to hear you guys say that the ratio should favor chloride. I would do this on beers where a smooth, rounded character is desired. I need to get out of my water neighborhood once in awhile. I'm used to what I know but there are other zip codes, clearly.

Ken, I think Pale Ales are a good playground for this type of thing. IOW, I wouldn't go dropping 300ppm of SO4 into one of your light lagers just to see what comes of it. Take something like your MLPA where you know just what to expect and then change the water in some significant ways to see what you get from it.

[HVB]

I used US-05. I did not up the 60min. IBU addition. What about the increased Cl makes you think that might be necessary?Do you have any data on the FG of any of their beers?

I did not think it would be, I was just looking for the data point. When I get to work tomorrow I will see what I have on HFS. Yes, I keep most of my beer stuff at work. I know I have some information from him from different interviews.

[Big Nake]

Ken, I think Pale Ales are a good playground for this type of thing. IOW, I wouldn't go dropping 300ppm of SO4 into one of your light lagers just to see what comes of it. Take something like your MLPA where you know just what to expect and then change the water in some significant ways to see what you get from it.

I usually just try to get my calcium up to about 60ppm which usually requires about 3 grams of CaCl, CaSO4 or a combination of both. For a pale lager it's all CaCl. For MLPA it may be 2 grams of CaCl and 1 gram of CaSO4. I have never just added CaSO4 and no CaCl. I will play with it a little bit on this beer.

[HVB]

For the Chinook/Citra APA that I have been making a lot of I use this for my water

Ca - 114

SO4-190

Cl - 64

pH - 5.3

 

I find it a nice middle ground.

[Big Nake]

For the Chinook/Citra APA that I have been making a lot of I use this for my waterCa - 114SO4-190Cl - 64pH - 5.3 I find it a nice middle ground.

So the sulfate is about 3 times the chloride. Can I assume this would be different than having 75ppm sulfate and 25ppm chloride which is also three times more sulfate than chloride?

[positiveContact]

So the sulfate is about 3 times the chloride. Can I assume this would be different than having 75ppm sulfate and 25ppm chloride which is also three times more sulfate than chloride?

 

it def would be different.  the whole sulfate to chloride ratio is overblown in my opinion.  they don't cancel each other out in that way.