32 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

My brother brought me a can yesterday.  Damn that's good stuff!

 

https://foundationbr.../beer/epiphany/

 

Details

Grist: Pilsner Malt, Pale Malt, Oats

Hops: Columbus, Cascade, Citra, Ella, Mosaic

Yeast: House British Ale

ABV: 8%

IBUs: 85

 

I think on the can it said the FG was something like 1.016 but I don't think it tasted really sweet or anything.  I'm not familiar with Ella - any of you guys used it?

[HVB]

First it was West coast and East Coast IPAs and then VT IPAs now Maine IPAs

 

ETA: never heard of ella hops .. have to look that one up.  The rest seems pretty common and good tasting.

Edited by drez77, 11 May 2015 - 08:38 AM.

[neddles]

My brother brought me a can yesterday. Damn that's good stuff!https://foundationbr.../beer/epiphany/ DetailsGrist: Pilsner Malt, Pale Malt, OatsHops: Columbus, Cascade, Citra, Ella, MosaicYeast: House British AleABV: 8%IBUs: 85I think on the can it said the FG was something like 1.016 but I don't think it tasted really sweet or anything. I'm not familiar with Ella - any of you guys used it?

Sounds tasty. Probably wasnt sweet because it was fermented well and left no fermentables behind. One thing I have never understood well is how if 1.010 is relatively dry how does an extra .006 worth of mostly flavorless long chain dextrins suddenly make the beer sweet? My experience is lacking but all I seem to get with a higher FG like that is a touch more body.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Sounds tasty. Probably wasnt sweet because it was fermented well and left no fermentables behind. One thing I have never understood well is how if 1.010 is relatively dry how does an extra .006 worth of mostly flavorless long chain dextrins suddenly make the beer sweet? My experience is lacking but all I seem to get with a higher FG like that is a touch more body.

 

All depends on the make up of the wort. If you make a wort that is high in dextrines then a high FG means more body and less sweetness. If you made a very high maltose percent wort with few dextrines then a FG of 1.016 might be too sweet and the body may be lacking. 

[neddles]

All depends on the make up of the wort. If you make a wort that is high in dextrines then a high FG means more body and less sweetness. If you made a very high maltose percent wort with few dextrines then a FG of 1.016 might be too sweet and the body may be lacking. 

I agree a wort low in dextrine's and high in maltose that only ferments to 1.016 suggests that there are considerable amounts of sweet fermentable sugars left behind after fermentation. In that situation you either picked a yeast that poops out too soon or conducted a poor fermentation, no?

[SchwanzBrewer]

I agree a wort low in dextrine's and high in maltose that only ferments to 1.016 suggests that there are considerable amounts of sweet fermentable sugars left behind after fermentation. In that situation you either picked a yeast that poops out too soon or conducted a poor fermentation, no?

 

sounds good.

[Brauer]

how does an extra .006 worth of mostly flavorless long chain dextrins suddenly make the beer sweet? 

My understanding is that dextrins vary from flavorless to sweet, depending on their specific structure, which is probably a mixture in beer. So, depending on your mash, you might end up with more or less dextrins that are unfermentable by yeast yet taste sweet. 

 

After all, there's a reason that we add hops to beer. Even fully fermented, it is sweet... unless you ferment it down around 1.000, perhaps.

Edited by Brauer, 11 May 2015 - 05:23 PM.

[positiveContact]

Even fully fermented, it is sweet... unless you ferment it down around 1.000, perhaps.

 

I'll have to let you know

[neddles]

My understanding is that dextrins vary from flavorless to sweet, depending on their specific structure, which is probably a mixture in beer. So, depending on your mash, you might end up with more or less dextrins that are unfermentable by yeast yet taste sweet. 

 

After all, there's a reason that we add hops to beer. Even fully fermented, it is sweet... unless you ferment it down around 1.000, perhaps.

Probably the best explanation I have heard so far to explain this. All I have ever read is that they are flavorless. But apparently that may not be the case. 

[Brauer]

Probably the best explanation I have heard so far to explain this. All I have ever read is that they are flavorless. But apparently that may not be the case.

If I understand correctly, it depends on the variable length of the dextrin side chains. There might be another factor in that there seems to be considerable variability in human salivary amylase, so there's the possibility that one man's sweet is another man's tasteless. Of course that's just speculation.

[SchwanzBrewer]

If I understand correctly, it depends on the variable length of the dextrin side chains.There might be another factor in that there seems to be considerable variability in human salivary amylase, so there's the possibility that one man's sweet is another man's tasteless. Of course that's just speculation.

 

I was just going to say this. Buddy in my club thinks many beers are too sweet. We were having a beer meeting at one of the guys house and he complained that one of the IIPA's was too sweet. The rest of us thought it was dry. Guys who's house it was brought out some dextrin powder and gave it to my buddy. Yup, he could taste sweetness. The rest of us couldn't or just barely got a hint of sweetness.

[neddles]

I was just going to say this. Buddy in my club thinks many beers are too sweet. We were having a beer meeting at one of the guys house and he complained that one of the IIPA's was too sweet. The rest of us thought it was dry. Guys who's house it was brought out some dextrin powder and gave it to my buddy. Yup, he could taste sweetness. The rest of us couldn't or just barely got a hint of sweetness.

That's good stuff. I don't get any sweetness from maltodextrin when I taste it.

[Brauer]

Guys who's house it was brought out some dextrin powder and gave it to my buddy. Yup, he could taste sweetness. The rest of us couldn't or just barely got a hint of sweetness.

Of course that's industrial maltodextrin, I'd bet there is a wider variation in structure in the dextrins we produce in a mash. Then you throw in varying levels of Beta and Alpha Amylase activity at different mash temperatures, varying efficiencies of starch gelatinization with different crushes and temperatures, and different step protocols... 

[positiveContact]

so what do guys think this house English yeast is?  is using English yeast in American IPAs the new thing?

[neddles]

so what do guys think this house English yeast is?  is using English yeast in American IPAs the new thing?

No. Firestone Walker, Stone, 3F's, Surly, and many others all reportedly used english yeasts.

[HVB]

so what do guys think this house English yeast is?  is using English yeast in American IPAs the new thing?

If you look at a lot of the big breweries they use English Strains

 

Firestone Walker - WLP002 or 1998

Stone is rumored to use WLP007 or a variation of it

Ska! uses an English Strain from my discussions with them

Hill Farmstead uses english

Alchemist uses Conan that is rumored to be English based

Deschutes - Same as FW

 

 

 

I think they use the English because they floculate out so must better, although that was my thought till teh new "hazy" IPAs became common.

[neddles]

I think they use the English because they floculate out so must better, although that was my thought till teh new "hazy" IPAs became common.

The question, for me, is wether or not that haze is the result of fresh serving after dry hopping or a result of yeast in suspension. It's known in the case of Alchemist to be yeast but I am not sure about others. The other thing at play is that some yeasts tend to take hop flavors with them when they drop. I have read that this can vary by yeast strain. Limited experience backs this up to some degree. I will repeat here that my absolute most aromatic and delicious and complex IPAs have all been very fresh an fairly hazy. Served in that window between when the harsh tannic dry hop character drops out and before the dry hop haze clears up. Most of these had yeasts that were considerably flocculent IIRC.

[HVB]

The question, for me, is wether or not that haze is the result of fresh serving after dry hopping or a result of yeast in suspension. It's known in the case of Alchemist to be yeast but I am not sure about others. The other thing at play is that some yeasts tend to take hop flavors with them when they drop. I have read that this can vary by yeast strain. Limited experience backs this up to some degree. I will repeat here that my absolute most aromatic and delicious and complex IPAs have all been very fresh an fairly hazy. Served in that window between when the harsh tannic dry hop character drops out and before the dry hop haze clears up. Most of these had yeasts that were considerably flocculent IIRC.

 

What is that window?  I do not see why a beer can not be ready in 14 days that has minimal haze. Of course I am in the camp of a less hazy beer.  I did brew one recently that was pretty hazy to start off and it was very good but it hurt me to look at it .

[neddles]

What is that window? I do not see why a beer can not be ready in 14 days that has minimal haze. Of course I am in the camp of a less hazy beer. I did brew one recently that was pretty hazy to start off and it was very good but it hurt me to look at it .

That window has varied for me. Sometimes only a week but. At times a month or more. I want to be able to maximize that window in my brewing but I havent figured the best way to donthat yet. And to be clear, the beers are typically quite delicious after things begin to fade but just not a great as they were. Generally there is no reason a hoppy beer can't be turned around in 14 days. I wasnt trying to imply that. Most my beers can be turned around in 14 days with or without haze. Occaisonally there can still be some tannic character if the dry hopping is large but that is usually not the case.

Edited by nettles, 13 May 2015 - 07:49 AM.

[neddles]

My understanding is that dextrins vary from flavorless to sweet, depending on their specific structure, which is probably a mixture in beer. So, depending on your mash, you might end up with more or less dextrins that are unfermentable by yeast yet taste sweet. 

 

After all, there's a reason that we add hops to beer. Even fully fermented, it is sweet... unless you ferment it down around 1.000, perhaps.

Going back to this… If this is true then carapils/carafoam would offer a predictable dextrin profile without sweetness, no? Assuming I am not the only one who finds them to have zero sweetness.