31 replies to this topic

[3rd party JKor]

Let's talk water!!!

 

[positiveContact]

two H.  one O.  bonds!

[Poptop]

"I could listen to an insurance seminar for days.  And they'd say, how do you do it?  And I'd say because I've been with Dell Griffith." ~ Neil Page

[Brauer]

Let's talk water!!!

 

There are a few very interesting posts by Marshall Schott on the subject over at https://brulosophy.com.

 

He is performing a series of triangle tests to test various brewing tropes. Typically, the tasters include judges, pro brewers and experienced homebrewers. So far, very few of our hard-and-fast rules are testing as significantly different by triangle test. On occasion, there have been things (like rehydrating yeast) that failed to prove significant to the group, but that the brewer was able to consistently detect, himself. That is one potential weakness I see in these kinds of group tests, even to a trained group.

 

One of the first variables to test as making a significant difference by the group was an experiment comparing otherwise identical Pilsners made with somewhat high mineral water or very soft water.  There was also a 2:1 preference for the Pilsner made with treated water. 

 

The results were so convincing to Schott that the brewer is now questioning the common practice of telling new brewers that water is just a fine tuning of the brewing practice that should wait until you have everything else dialed in. 

 

(Another couple experiments worth checking out compare cool and warm fermented British yeasts - significantly different - and Lager yeast (WLP800) fermented at 50F vs 66F - not significantly different.)

[HVB]

I recently started reading his blog and there is some good information to take away from it for sure.

[neddles]

There are a few very interesting posts by Marshall Schott on the subject over at https://brulosophy.com.

 

He is performing a series of triangle tests to test various brewing tropes. Typically, the tasters include judges, pro brewers and experienced homebrewers. So far, very few of our hard-and-fast rules are testing as significantly different by triangle test. On occasion, there have been things (like rehydrating yeast) that failed to prove significant to the group, but that the brewer was able to consistently detect, himself. That is one potential weakness I see in these kinds of group tests, even to a trained group.

 

One of the first variables to test as making a significant difference by the group was an experiment comparing otherwise identical Pilsners made with somewhat high mineral water or very soft water.  There was also a 2:1 preference for the Pilsner made with treated water. 

 

The results were so convincing to Schott that the brewer is now questioning the common practice of telling new brewers that water is just a fine tuning of the brewing practice that should wait until you have everything else dialed in. 

 

(Another couple experiments worth checking out compare cool and warm fermented British yeasts - significantly different - and Lager yeast (WLP800) fermented at 50F vs 66F - not significantly different.)

Yep been reading those experiments for a while and I have to say it's very interesting, especially that WLP800 temp one that just came out. Lots of good stuff over there. Also it has me thinking of all kinds of experiments I would do if I had this process set up the way he does and access to tasters.

[Brauer]

I recently started reading his blog and there is some good information to take away from it for sure.

 

Yep been reading those experiments for a while and I have to say it's very interesting, especially that WLP800 temp one that just came out. Lots of good stuff over there. Also it has me thinking of all kinds of experiments I would do if I had this process set up the way he does and access to tasters.

I think this is a really bold and ambitious project. I'll be following the new experiments as they come out. I like that he is following up the first round of experiments to further test the conclusion under different conditions.

 

The test of pale ale and dark malty profiles in a Stout was an interesting follow-up to the Pilsner water test, because it showed that the water made a significant difference but that drinkers taste preference for the different approaches to water was split down the middle.

[positiveContact]

I feel some vindication on my questioning multiple dry hoppings (assuming they are done under similar conditions).  it just made no sense to me and was not explainable.

 

eta:  man, this is some good stuff.  I can't wait until I have a chance to sit down and read it all.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 26 June 2015 - 04:18 AM.

[HVB]

I feel some vindication on my questioning multiple dry hoppings (assuming they are done under similar conditions).  it just made no sense to me and was not explainable.

 

eta:  man, this is some good stuff.  I can't wait until I have a chance to sit down and read it all.

It really is good and I am glad he is doing it so I do not have to.

 

Oh the multiple dry hops.  I did read something recently that a DH that is too big can lower the pH of the finished beer.  Now I am not sure if splitting that large DH up would help that or not.

[positiveContact]

It really is good and I am glad he is doing it so I do not have to.

 

Oh the multiple dry hops.  I did read something recently that a DH that is too big can lower the pH of the finished beer.  Now I am not sure if splitting that large DH up would help that or not.

 

I don't see why it would matter there either.  I think doing multiples at different temps can make some sense.

[Big Nake]

There are a few very interesting posts by Marshall Schott on the subject over at https://brulosophy.com. He is performing a series of triangle tests to test various brewing tropes. Typically, the tasters include judges, pro brewers and experienced homebrewers. So far, very few of our hard-and-fast rules are testing as significantly different by triangle test. On occasion, there have been things (like rehydrating yeast) that failed to prove significant to the group, but that the brewer was able to consistently detect, himself. That is one potential weakness I see in these kinds of group tests, even to a trained group. One of the first variables to test as making a significant difference by the group was an experiment comparing otherwise identical Pilsners made with somewhat high mineral water or very soft water.  There was also a 2:1 preference for the Pilsner made with treated water.  The results were so convincing to Schott that the brewer is now questioning the common practice of telling new brewers that water is just a fine tuning of the brewing practice that should wait until you have everything else dialed in.  (Another couple experiments worth checking out compare cool and warm fermented British yeasts - significantly different - and Lager yeast (WLP800) fermented at 50F vs 66F - not significantly different.)

Marshall is in this German Brewers FB group that I'm in and that's how I got introduced to his "exbeeriments". For a long time I have praised people who are able to take the time to either prove or disprove things that we sometimes hold sacred. Kai is another one and Martin has certainly helped me as well. I would include Denny but he's a mushroom beer-drinking bus driver now so... well, okay I'll include him too. Cheers Beerheads.

[HVB]

I don't see why it would matter there either.  I think doing multiples at different temps can make some sense.

in a way my multiple steps were at 2 temps.  One was ferm temp and one was cellar temp.  I have not read his post in it yet but plan to today.

 

The last few hoppy beers I have done (Chinook/Citra versions) I have been lazy and just did it all at once. 

[positiveContact]

in a way my multiple steps were at 2 temps.  One was ferm temp and one was cellar temp.  I have not read his post in it yet but plan to today.

 

The last few hoppy beers I have done (Chinook/Citra versions) I have been lazy and just did it all at once. 

 

my experience tells me that temp matters.  maybe even pre/during/post fermentation matters although I don't have many data points on that.

[HVB]

my experience tells me that temp matters.  maybe even pre/during/post fermentation matters although I don't have many data points on that.

I agree the temp does very much matter.  I do not have any data points to say what is the best but I know I have liked some batches better than others and DH temp was one variable.

[positiveContact]

I agree the temp does very much matter.  I do not have any data points to say what is the best but I know I have liked some batches better than others and DH temp was one variable.

 

so how did it trend?

[HVB]

so how did it trend?

I liked it when it was DH's warmer than colder.  So beers done in the winter would need to have the heating pad stay on to maintain that warmer ( 65-70) temp and then shut off to cold crash and package.

[positiveContact]

I liked it when it was DH's warmer than colder.  So beers done in the winter would need to have the heating pad stay on to maintain that warmer ( 65-70) temp and then shut off to cold crash and package.

 

what were your colder temps?  I have a theory that mid 50s might work well for me but I'm not sure.  right now I'm doing something completely different.  I put the hops in @ about 60F and I'm slowly bringing the temp down to really cold over a few days and then I'll leave the hops in there for a few more days before racking.

[HVB]

what were your colder temps?  I have a theory that mid 50s might work well for me but I'm not sure.  right now I'm doing something completely different.  I put the hops in @ about 60F and I'm slowly bringing the temp down to really cold over a few days and then I'll leave the hops in there for a few more days before racking.

48-55

 

ETA: This is all my personal preference of course.

Edited by drez77, 26 June 2015 - 06:27 AM.

[Big Nake]

Btw... should someone give JKor a timeout for starting a parody thread in the BEER forum? He's clearly letting the PH rub off on him!

[positiveContact]

48-55

 

ETA: This is all my personal preference of course.

 

absolutely.  different people like different aspects of hops.  have you ever tried REALLY cold like 40F?

 

Btw... should someone give JKor a timeout for starting a parody thread in the BEER forum? He's clearly letting the PH rub off on him!

 

gross, ken.  glad I already ate b-fast.

 

 

also, Ken, did you check out the trub experiment on that website?  more trub in the primary = clearer beer!!!!  did your head just explode?