Jump to content


Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Delayed Head Development


  • Please log in to reply
30 replies to this topic

#1 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 28 June 2015 - 12:57 PM

Most of the brewing texts agree that head retention is caused by residual proteins in the beer. As a beer lagers some of these precipitate to the bottom. So in theory the head retention should decrease with age. What I don't understand is how a freshly carbed beer lacks head and has poor retention. My latest Vienna was as headless as cider for several weeks after being carbed. Its fine now with long lasting head. This follows suit with every beer I've kegged or bottled. What gives?

#2 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 28 June 2015 - 01:04 PM

Hmm. Great question and my answer is... I don't know. I skim my wort when it's coming to a boil to get the proteins out because I have heard that proteins will contribute to cloudy beer. And we can't have that. :D My freshly carbed beers don't seem to lack head formation & stabililty, AFAIK. I have heard people suggest wheat, flaked products, carafoam and carapils can help with head retention but I'm not sure that's true. But I will share this... when I get the pH of my wort low (I'm talking kettle pH in the 5.2-5.4 range) and I chill and stir and then get the wort as cool as I can (based on ale or lager) and then I rack to primary... the foam clings to the side of the kettle as I transfer and as that wort hits the primary, it mounds up with an unbelievable cap of foam in the primary. I can't say pH contributes to head formation but it seems to have a positive impact.

#3 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 28 June 2015 - 01:13 PM

Ken, I know you always say your beer sits awhile before a tap frees up. How long is your beer carbed for before you tap it? Mine usually takes ~2 weeks after carbing until it holds it's head. I don't have head retention problems after that, just in that time frame. I don't get how a fully carbed beer will gain head retention capabilities after carbing.

#4 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 28 June 2015 - 01:19 PM

Okay, so I keg the beer, get it cold and carb it and then that keg (those kegs...) will sit cold until a tap opens up which could be 2-3 weeks or more (again, ale or lager). But I have also carbed up a beer and literally 2 minutes after carbing (for 48 hours) I will sneak a sample with a cobra tap and I have never seen a pattern where those samples show no head. Never. My carb process is 48 hours at about 25psi at 35-40°. I do think that those samples which are now taken from a keg that is slightly warmer and where no additional gas is in the picture do differ from that same keg that is put into one of the draft fridges (colder) and where the keg is on gas constantly. The beer cools down a few degrees and the constant exposure to gas seems to liven up the beer a bit. I'm I making sense? I've had 3 beers so far this afternoon. :P

#5 Steve Urquell

Steve Urquell

    Hot Loader

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 3874 posts
  • LocationOzarks

Posted 28 June 2015 - 01:35 PM

It's puzzling to me Ken. I've seen the same with bottled beer. I guess this one made me think about it harder cause it took longer than any other beer to develop it's head. Anyone else notice this phenomenon?

#6 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 28 June 2015 - 03:31 PM

maybe the carbonation needs to even out?  freshly forced carbed beers also seem slightly rough to me.



#7 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 28 June 2015 - 03:39 PM

Force carbed beer should not be rough unless you do the super-high pressure & roll-the-keg method. Those who do the 10-12 psi for a week should have instantly smooth beer and the 25psi for 48 hour method is the same.

Edited by Village Taphouse, 28 June 2015 - 03:40 PM.


#8 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16521 posts

Posted 28 June 2015 - 03:42 PM

Cant say I have ever seen this behavior before. I have seen the character of the head change... as in frothiness/stickiness but the retention generally seems the same from fresh to aged.

#9 positiveContact

positiveContact

    Anti-Brag Queen

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68886 posts
  • LocationLimbo

Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:02 PM

Force carbed beer should not be rough unless you do the super-high pressure & roll-the-keg method. Those who do the 10-12 psi for a week should have instantly smooth beer and the 25psi for 48 hour method is the same.

 

I do 30 PSI for a couple of days.  it def smooths out after a couple of weeks.



#10 MyaCullen

MyaCullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68748 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:08 PM

Cant say I have ever seen this behavior before. I have seen the character of the head change... as in frothiness/stickiness but the retention generally seems the same from fresh to aged.

same



#11 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:31 PM

...it def smooths out after a couple of weeks.

Okay, that's fine but "rough" should not be part of the equation. The character of the beer may smooth out over time but I consider it to be "good, fresh beer" right after carbing.

#12 Poptop

Poptop

    Frequent Member

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5011 posts
  • LocationCoconut Creek, FL

Posted 28 June 2015 - 05:34 PM

I find increased foaming/head after 3+ weeks in the keg - to the point of annoying when filling a pint.

#13 Big Nake

Big Nake

    Comptroller of Forum Content

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 53518 posts

Posted 28 June 2015 - 06:33 PM

I find increased foaming/head after 3+ weeks in the keg - to the point of annoying when filling a pint.

Is this "crazy head" or just lively faucets & excessing foaming? THIS is interesting because there are times when a very light (almost gone) keg will fill on a super-foamy tap. But Chils said it happens with bottled beer too so...

#14 MyaCullen

MyaCullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68748 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 29 June 2015 - 08:06 AM

I find increased foaming/head after 3+ weeks in the keg - to the point of annoying when filling a pint.

over carbing?



#15 Poptop

Poptop

    Frequent Member

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5011 posts
  • LocationCoconut Creek, FL

Posted 29 June 2015 - 08:46 AM

It seems lately that all 3 kegs get the foam via picnic's.  I typically shut off my lines when I know the beer is carbed.  I even change out my lines quite frequently (7') just to ensure there's no spooge or other crap causing this.  My psi for all 3 is set just above 10. It's getting annoying to fill a pint and have half full of foam.



#16 denny

denny

    Living Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9090 posts
  • LocationEugene OR

Posted 29 June 2015 - 09:05 AM

Most of the brewing texts agree that head retention is caused by residual proteins in the beer. As a beer lagers some of these precipitate to the bottom. So in theory the head retention should decrease with age. What I don't understand is how a freshly carbed beer lacks head and has poor retention. My latest Vienna was as headless as cider for several weeks after being carbed. Its fine now with long lasting head. This follows suit with every beer I've kegged or bottled. What gives?

 

I would think it's becasue the CO2 hasn't had as much time to go onto solution as an older beer.  That means it leaves the beer more readily.



#17 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:04 AM

It seems lately that all 3 kegs get the foam via picnic's.  I typically shut off my lines when I know the beer is carbed.  I even change out my lines quite frequently (7') just to ensure there's no spooge or other crap causing this.  My psi for all 3 is set just above 10. It's getting annoying to fill a pint and have half full of foam.

 

Dumb questions coming up, but I'll ask anyway:  Have you checked said keg's dip tubes for any obstructions?

 

For a 7' line, 10-ish psi doesn't sound terribly high to cause foaming from being overcarbed; if anything, perhaps the CO2 is breaking out of solution due to the serving pressure being too low?  Just a guess.



#18 denny

denny

    Living Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9090 posts
  • LocationEugene OR

Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:06 AM

Here's some general info in beer foam that may (or may not) be relevant....https://byo.com/stor...foam-techniques



#19 Poptop

Poptop

    Frequent Member

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 5011 posts
  • LocationCoconut Creek, FL

Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:29 AM

Dumb questions coming up, but I'll ask anyway:  Have you checked said keg's dip tubes for any obstructions?
 
For a 7' line, 10-ish psi doesn't sound terribly high to cause foaming from being overcarbed; if anything, perhaps the CO2 is breaking out of solution due to the serving pressure being too low?  Just a guess.


I've maintained the same set up for a few years not but it only seems like the problem has been around for the past 6 months or so... I do check my dip tubes with each cleaning. I can see your point about the low pressure but again, my routine is not really changed. Hmmmmmmmm.

#20 Bklmt2000

Bklmt2000

    Five Way Expert

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 10650 posts
  • LocationCincinnati, OH

Posted 29 June 2015 - 10:41 AM

I've maintained the same set up for a few years not but it only seems like the problem has been around for the past 6 months or so... I do check my dip tubes with each cleaning. I can see your point about the low pressure but again, my routine is not really changed. Hmmmmmmmm.

 

The only thing I can think of that makes sense to me, given what you've described about your serving setup, is an obstruction somewhere b/w keg and glass:

 

- poppets

 

- picnic taps

 

- dip tube

 

- serving lines

 

- quick disconnects




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users