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Is my plan crazy, and should I be happy with what I have?


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#41 gnef

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Posted 07 October 2015 - 05:45 PM

I thought I'd update this a bit.

 

I bought another two 650ss faucets, and I am pilferring two from my direct keg draw setups for now. I figure they will get more use on the coffin box than they will on those setups, at least for now. Right now the plan is to replace all the faucets, then I can get two more for the direct draw setups.

 

I hope to replace the four faucets tonight, replacing the shank fitting with the john guest fitting, and putting the bev seal ultra line on.

 

I've been doing more tests on the single faucet I have installed currently, and it is pretty consistent that if I only draw off a sampler size, it has a lot of foam and is a bit warmer, but it is drinkable. If I pour a whole pint, it has a normal amount of head, though I do currently have it set with increased resistance, so it takes about 15-16 seconds to pour a full pint.

 

This is definitely going to be an expensive way of saving 2 ounces of beer at a time, but given how much beer I've thrown away, I still think it is worthwhile for me and the effort I put in to making the beer.

 

I'll be selling the four 525ss faucets to another brewer in the club, which will allow me to get another 2 650ss faucets, and at that point, I'll have changed out half of the faucets on the coffin box.

 

I'll definitely be doing more testing once these new four are replaced to see how well they work on different beers.

 

Once concern I have is a note I noticed on one of the online sites selling the 650ss faucets, that they aren't good for highly acidic beverages like cider, wine, or sour beers because some of the 304 stainless that they used was reactive - which really means to me that if it is true, they aren't really using true 304 stainless. I'm actually not that worried, though I may send a note to Perlick for confirmation of that.



#42 gnef

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Posted 18 October 2015 - 02:11 PM

Well, I've sold four more kegs, along with some lids. I just ordered 5 more 650ss faucets, and I bought more of the John Guest flared fitting to 3/8" OD tubing. I will probably need another 20-30 of these fittings to complete the transition to John Guest only fittings.

 

The other upgrade I hope to add are metal check valves that I found at Chi Company that attach directly to the gas disconnect. The only thing is they are about $10 a piece, and I am thinking of getting 5-7 of them. This has been one of my main concerns for using the John Guest fittings for the gas side, as I didn't want to have to use clamps to put in the cheap check valves that I had been using from usplastics, but the John Guest check valve was too expensive.

 

The other concern for the gas side has been that the pvc tubing I've been using is not ideal for push to connect fittings. It deforms due to the jaws on the fitting, and I believe will leak over time. I am actually considering buying more of the bev seal line to use as gas line, as it should work just fine for that, and I like using only one tubing for everything. I am still undecided on this, as I can get a 100' roll of polyethylene tubing off amazon for less than $20 shipped that will work just as well, I've even thought of getting the colored tubing to distinguish the gas line separately from the liquid line if I go this route though. We'll see what I end up with, this is a minor issue compared to finishing the rest of the faucets and beerline.



#43 3rd party JKor

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Posted 19 October 2015 - 07:32 AM

When do you get your own feature in BYO magazine?  :)



#44 gnef

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Posted 21 October 2015 - 10:23 PM

I received the 5 faucets today, and just installed them tonight. Whew! That brings me up to 12 out of the 14. I think I am just going to finish up the 14 and not add the two like I was originally was thinking. I came to realize that now that I am using bev seal ultra, it makes it very easy to flush and change the beverage. This is significant because I had been preserving one line for soda due to the flavor leeching issues. As I changed everything out, I put a beer on that, and I took off my cyser from the tap, and put another beer on that one too. I do still have two more beers in fermentors ready to rack to kegs, so I could definitely use another two lines, but I just don't feel like spending the money for them, at least not yet. This project has been big enough, and I am still not done!

 

I have already sold two of the 425ss on homebrewtalk for $50 a piece shipped, so that will fund the last two faucets to be replaced. I am also selling two of my 525ss to a member of the club for $25 a piece, which will fund the John Guest fittings I just bought as well. 

 

Hopefully I can sell the last 425ss and the three ventmatic faucets for a good price so that I can finish this update quickly and move on (maybe to the stainless hex tap handle project I've been asking about in the PH).

 

I'm almost there! I didn't think I'd be able to finish the update this quickly, so I am pleasantly surprised, and am excited to not have to throw away any beer due to the lines. I also really should never have to replace the lines again as long as I take proper regular care of them.



#45 matt6150

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 04:18 AM

I am happy I went to the bev seal ultra lines as well. No staining and easy to clean.

#46 HVB

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 11:23 AM

For the ultra seal did you heat up and use regular fittings or did you get the push to connect fittings?  I need to change over my hose and I am debating going the ultra seal route.



#47 gnef

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 01:25 PM

I am using the John Guest fittings. They are amazing. They are also expensive. Haha.

 

I thought I had the math figured out to get all my faucets changed over while selling them as I went along, as well as selling some kegs. I forgot to account for how many fittings I would need to get. I just realized today that I spent $120 on fittings to do this update. It is worth it, but I need to make sure I sell more stuff before I finish off the last two faucets.

 

But I am glad I am doing this, this really should be the last time I replace lines. I will just do a beerline cleaning day every other year or so, and I should be good.



#48 matt6150

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Posted 22 October 2015 - 06:13 PM

For the ultra seal did you heat up and use regular fittings or did you get the push to connect fittings? I need to change over my hose and I am debating going the ultra seal route.

I just heated up and used regular fittings. I think I have a few small chunks of it still I could send you if you want to check it out?

#49 gnef

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Posted 24 October 2015 - 12:39 PM

Well, I just sold another two kegs today, and ordered the last two faucets. Woohoo!

 

Hopefully I can sell the ventmatics so that I can get another two 650ss for my keg direct draw setups, though I may wait on that, and just start getting the materials to try to make my own stainless tap handles.



#50 3rd party JKor

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Posted 24 October 2015 - 09:26 PM

Which Guest fittings are you using?

#51 gnef

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Posted 24 October 2015 - 10:26 PM

I am using two, a 5/8" bsp to 3/8" OD tube : https://www.amazon.c...ailpage_o01_s00

 

and a 1/4" ffl to 3/8" OD tube: https://www.amazon.c...ailpage_o03_s00

 

I also have some John Guest 1/4" NPT to 3/8" OD tube for the manifolds and valves, and I also bought some chrome plated brass versions off ebay.



#52 3rd party JKor

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 08:08 AM

So you're using a semi-rigid 3/8" OD tube for your bev line? Are those fittings common for serving? Never seen them used for that. I take it the 5/8 BSP fits shank threads?

#53 gnef

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Posted 25 October 2015 - 11:47 AM

The Bev Seal Ultra 235 is semi-rigid. It does work with pvc lines, but it does pinch the lines over extended use. I never had a liquid leak on the beerline in the 4-5 years I had been using them on pvc lines in the walk-in. I will say that I haven't fully trusted them to be 100% leak free for CO2 lines, so I still shut off the tank after every use.

 

edit - I should also mention that I am using 1/4" ID x 3/8" OD bev seal ultra, which is why I also needed the 650ss faucets to restrict the flow at the faucet. If you are doing this from scratch, it will make more sense to use the 3/16" ID x 5/16" OD bev seal ultra, and there are John Guest fittings for this size as well.

 

These fittings are common for RO and DI water systems, and they are becoming more common for use with the Bev Seal Ultra line. The early adopters of the line had a really hard time getting the line onto the swivel nuts or the shank nipples due to the rigidity, and some had to heat with a heat gun and deform the line even to get it on. Once more people started to discover the John Guest fittings though, it made it a lot simpler for people to use the Bev Seal Ultra line. Everything I have researched about this line leads me to believe this will be the last beerline I ever need, and once I install it, I will only have to do routine maintenance, and it will allow me to swap between soda and beer if I wanted to, and as long as I do a flush between, there will be no flavor leaching.

 

Yes, the 5/8" bsp is for the end of the shank, it replaces the nut and nipple there. The 1/4'' FFL was to connect on to the disconnects and any flared fitting that I still had on equipment. I have been trying to minimize the number of fittings, so when possible I've used the 1/4" NPT on valves and the like, though I don't have too many of those.

 

I have also started using the bev seal ultra 235 as my gas line as well. I thought about getting separate line, but at this point, I'd rather just stock the one type of line and be done with it.

 

I've also settled on refurbishing the jockey boxes with the bev seal ultra line. I will start with the 5 pass jockey box that I haven't converted over to John Guest fittings yet, and do that all in one fell swoop. For the 6 pass and 2 pass though, I just replaced those lines with new PVC lines a few months ago, so I'll probably just get another 100-200 ft of line to keep on hand to replace that tubing when needed, probably in 1-3 years. It will be very simple, just measure and cut the line, pop off the old tubing from the John Guest fittings, and pop the new tubing on, and flush with star san. I also trust the bev seal more with star san for long term storage. I never liked the way PVC tubing felt after prolonged star san soaks, and I discovered that just leaving water in there promoted mold growth in those lines.

 

All in all, I expect this to be my final serving setup for as long as I continue to brew. My only concern is with a single report that the 650ss faucets are not good for very low pH beverages, and puts off a sulfur smell. I think I smelled something when I did an extended soak in star san, but since the faucets have been installed, I haven't noticed a thing, at least not yet.


Edited by gnef, 25 October 2015 - 11:48 AM.


#54 gnef

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Posted 28 October 2015 - 06:43 PM

well, I received the last two 650ss faucets today for the coffin box, finishing out the 14. Things are working as I expect, and I am glad to be finished with this phase of the update. The next major phase will be completing the entire conversion over to John Guest fittings, which at this point will be one jockey box, and some regulators, and all of that should be relatively inexpensive compared to what I just finished.

 

The next minor update will be the tap handles which I hope to get the material for some time next week. I just received all the tooling today, so I hope to start on that soon!

 

Here are a couple pictures of the coffin box from both sides:

22371367740_0942927437_c.jpg

22545761802_29371dbe09_c.jpg



#55 3rd party JKor

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 05:09 AM

Gatdam, man. That's insane.

More pics! Let's see the business end!

#56 SchwanzBrewer

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 07:14 AM

Are the faucets really that much better?



#57 gnef

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 08:18 AM

Gatdam, man. That's insane.

More pics! Let's see the business end!

ha! I already put my glassware back! I'll take some pictures of the insides of the walk-in, it definitely looks different due to the semi rigid tubing. We'll see if I feel like taking the glassware off and taking pictures of the inside of the coffin box. I should've taken some when I finished the work, but we had friends coming by, so I just put everything back together quickly.

 

Are the faucets really that much better?

It depends on what you want to do. For me, I had to move to 650ss because of the decision to change out my tubing for the Bev Seal Ultra that would fit the John Guest fittings I've already been using (3/8" OD tubing). There is very little resistance in the tubing, which would either mean 40-50 ft of tubing, which would've looked ridiculous inside the walk-in, or I use these 650ss faucets to control the flow at the faucet.

 

The goal of all of this primarily was so that I would've have to throw away any more beer. That sounds petty, but sometimes I only take samples off the line to see how they are doing, and I was throwing away as much beer as I was actually drinking, and I started to notice how many pitchers of beer I was just throwing out over time, and I really didn't like that.

 

The secondary purpose was to never have to worry about replacing the lines forever, I'll just need to use some line cleaner regularly, and these lines will last. These lines also allow me to put on a soda when I want to, and then flush, and put beer back on with no flavors leeching (pvc was horrible at leeching those flavors).

 

Using John Guest fittings allows me to switch between pin lock and ball lock kegs easily, but if you only have one type of keg, this isn't that important. Where the John Guest fittings also come in handy is when flushing the beerlines. All I have to do is get a union, or I have a number of John Guest Tees, so I can take off the disconnect, and put 2+ lines linked together and flush them all at the same time recirculating heated caustic using my pump. It was really handy when I cleaned my lines months ago on the ones that already had the John Guest fittings.

 

The 650ss faucets also dramatically reduce foaming for filling growlers. I don't do this that often, but I was amazed at how well it worked for this when I needed to. Since all my faucets are now the same, I have just the single growler filler that I can use for all of my beers on tap. Previously I had ventmatics, perlick 425ss, 525ss, and one 650ss faucet, so I am glad they are all the same now.

 

I will say that I really like the ventmatics in particular. I had the ventmatics and 425ss for nearly a decade. The machining on the ventmatics was top notch, with all interior surfaces machined well and polished. They were a step above the machining of the 425ss, which were good, but just not as nicely made. If there were a way to keep the ventmatics with what I wanted to do, I would've kept them forever.

 

I was originally thinking of putting the ventmatics and perlick 425ss faucets on my jockey boxes, but I realized I could get almost as much for them as what I was paying for the 650ss faucets, which made it a really easy decision so that I could finish this project without it costing me a lot out of pocket. The 525ss were only worth about half, but they were a cheaper faucet to start with.

 

All in all, I am very happy with the way things turned out, and I am looking forward to my next project already!



#58 3rd party JKor

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 08:57 AM

Did you ever look at using the mixing nozzle restrictors in your bev lines?  I had really good success with them when I was serving from standard faucets directly connected to the liquid QD post.  Just dropping a few restrictors down the dip tube was enough to take care of my foaming issues.

 

Obviously it's moot now since you already have the faucets, I was just wondering if you considered it or fooled with them.


Edited by JKor, 29 October 2015 - 08:59 AM.


#59 gnef

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 10:06 AM

I considered it, but decided against it a long time ago. Those really work well when you only have a handful of kegs to work with. At the time I had right at 100 kegs, and I was definitely not going to be adding those mixers to all of the kegs. Even now with just under 90 kegs, I feel that is too many. I also didn't want to just have enough for my serving kegs, and have to take them out and put them in new kegs.



#60 3rd party JKor

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Posted 29 October 2015 - 10:21 AM

I guess that makes sense, but when I finish a keg I always break it down, so pulling the restrictors and adding them to a new keg was never an issue.  It's definitely nice having adjustable restriction right at the point of serving so you can fine tune on the fly.  It's probably worth it in the long run as the difference in cost for those faucets compared to even the most basic faucets is just a few hundred dollars.  When serving so many different beers the value of getting them flowing properly is pretty high.




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