39 replies to this topic

[Bklmt2000]

For those of you who use Whirlfloc (or other kettle clarifier of choice):

 

Hhow often do you encounter chill haze at serving time, when you used kettle finings in the boil for said batch?

 

Just curious, as I normally get pretty bright beers (see the "post a pic of your pint" thread) without Whirlfloc, but my current on-tap beers have chill haze, and I can't figure out what changed.

 

My brewing/fermentation/cold-crash M.O.'s are the same, and Ive used the same yeast strains (US-05 mainly) for the last 3 years we've lived in this house.

 

I'm thinking of using Whirlfloc for my next few batches and see if anything changes; any ideas/thoughts as to what might be going on?

 

And the beers in question taste fine (2 are a tad green, since they've been on tap less than a week), so I don't think infection is the culprit.

[Big Nake]

I think clarity is impacted a number of ways. I always used whirfloc in the kettle and I always use a gel solution. I also always (except one recent batch) use a secondary (which is where I add the gel) so that the beer can settle. Some amount of time cold seems to help and trying to get as little schputz (hop and break material) into the primary seems to help as well. But one factor that has an impact on clarity is pH, for sure. Is there a chance that your mash, sparge or kettle pH was high? You will get a pesky haze that WILL NOT go away if you boil at too high of a pH. Also, any chance that these beers are more pale than some of your others? I ask because darker grains will lower pH and help get you past some of these issues. In the old days, my darker beers were coming out clearer than my pale beers. My guess is that you know all of this so I'm just spitballing.

[3rd party JKor]

I used to have a pretty common chill haze problem before i stopped brewing a few years ago. I never really chased it down cuz i ended up "solving" it with gel. It certainly could've been pH.

Do you have a new lot of base malt recently?

[positiveContact]

I will say this...

 

I do minimal vorlaufing (only avoid big chunks).

 

I do tend to shoot for low pH (5.2-5.4) in the mash and I do a very minimal sparge with untreated water which means my pre-boil pH should also be pretty low.

 

I do use whirlfloc with 5 mins left in the boil.  My whirlfloc is a little long in the tooth though so I'm not sure how much good it does.

 

I do cold crash for a few days prior to kegging.

 

I do not gel anymore.  I felt it sped things up but didn't change the final outcome.

 

Most of my beers end up pretty clear after about 2 weeks in the keg.  After 4 weeks they are usually crystal clear with no sign of chill haze that I can see.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 03 August 2015 - 04:22 PM.

[Bklmt2000]

I think i might've figured out what's changed:  not doing a mashout decoction w/ 1/3 of the mash runnings.

 

I started doing this about a year ago, based on the Maltose Falcons website (link: https://www.maltosef...ough-decoction)

 

I do recall not doing this for the batches i currently have on tap, so that might (and I emphasize, might) explain why these batches are hazy.

 

I will try a mashout decoction on my next batch and see if that makes a difference.  And thanks for all of the replies, guys, I appreciate it.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I think if the PH is right, the mash has had adequate time to convert, and your sparge water is hot enough (especially if you are batch sparging), there is no reason to mash out. I don't know many brewers that don't mash at < 1.25 - 2.0 qts/lb and I rarely ever hear complaints of stuck mashes anymore.

 

Anecdotally I'll say this, I had some haze in my Kolsch a batch ago and when I did the latest lager I was uber careful about PH. Checked my notes and I wasn't as careful with the Kolsch. The lager was brilliantly clear on time. Argument can be made about different yeasts, but I suspect the PH had a lot to do with it. Guess what I'm gonna be anal about on my next batch of Kolsch? Yup, PH.

Edited by SchwanzBrewer, 04 August 2015 - 08:18 AM.

[3rd party JKor]

IME, doing a mashout does give me a little bump in extraction.  Not a huge deal though.  I cut it out when I'm short on time.

[denny]

IME, doing a mashout does give me a little bump in extraction.  Not a huge deal though.  I cut it out when I'm short on time.

 

If mashout is raising your efficiency, it's likely because you don't have complete conversion first.

[chadm75]

I, like one Kenneth Lenard, like my homebrew as presentable as can be.  So that means most of my beers get gel in the keg (minus Hefe, Saison, Wit, Stouts). 

 

I use a tablet of Whirlfloc at the 10-15 minute mark and then whirlpool for 10 mins to spin the trub and hot material to the center.   I started crashing my beers post primary fermentation and then sometimes, I'll secondary/lager in the my chest freezer to drop the yeast and created a chill haze giving the gel something to work on. 

 

You guys keep talking about watching the pH in the mash and honestly, I've never paid too much attention to that.  I do have some pH test strips that I can check on and the pH always seems to fall in the 5.0-5.6 range.  So I've never worried to much about it. 

 

And thanks to our wonderful friends at InBev, we're blessed to have outstanding brewing water here in STL.  They actually contract with the City to create the brewing water profile specific to what they want it to be for their beers.  #corporateamerica

[SchwanzBrewer]

I, like one Kenneth Lenard, like my homebrew as presentable as can be.  So that means most of my beers get gel in the keg (minus Hefe, Saison, Wit, Stouts). 

 

I use a tablet of Whirlfloc at the 10-15 minute mark and then whirlpool for 10 mins to spin the trub and hot material to the center.   I started crashing my beers post primary fermentation and then sometimes, I'll secondary/lager in the my chest freezer to drop the yeast and created a chill haze giving the gel something to work on. 

 

You guys keep talking about watching the pH in the mash and honestly, I've never paid too much attention to that.  I do have some pH test strips that I can check on and the pH always seems to fall in the 5.0-5.6 range.  So I've never worried to much about it. 

 

And thanks to our wonderful friends at InBev, we're blessed to have outstanding brewing water here in STL.  They actually contract with the City to create the brewing water profile specific to what they want it to be for their beers.  #corporateamerica

 

Well that's called cheating! Here in the hard water capital of the US we need to make some adjustments. Hell, you can't even get a shower head to last more than 2 years around here without soaking it in lime away.

[3rd party JKor]

If mashout is raising your efficiency, it's likely because you don't have complete conversion first.

Maybe.

[Brauer]

If mashout is raising your efficiency, it's likely because you don't have complete conversion first.

By definition, I think.

 

You guys keep talking about watching the pH in the mash and honestly, I've never paid too much attention to that.  I do have some pH test strips that I can check on and the pH always seems to fall in the 5.0-5.6 range.  So I've never worried to much about it. 

Which pH test strips? Many of the ones sold to brewers don't work very well in wort. In that case, I wouldn't trust that your pH is what they say. The ColorpHast strips work okay in their 5.0-5.3 range, but read 0.3 low, in wort, so your pH 5.0-5.6 would be 5.3-5.9, which isn't great at the high end.

[3rd party JKor]

By definition, I think.

I've heard the increased solubility at the higher temp helps with sugar extraction. Can't remember where i read or heard it.

[Bklmt2000]

One point I wanted to make was, the mashout decoction I referenced above wasn't done in the pursuit of higher extract effiency;  my extract efficiency is normally 80-85% with a single batch sparge, which i'm more than satisfied with.

 

The main thing I'm trying to nail down is why my beer's clarity has recently gone from clear to much more murky than I'd like.  I think it's a worthwhile experiment to see if my next batch (which will get a mashout decoction) results in clarity like I was getting earlier this year.

 

If not, no big thing, but at least then i can cross this off the list of possible culprits.

 

Oh well, time for a beer, methinks.

[Brauer]

I've heard the increased solubility at the higher temp helps with sugar extraction. Can't remember where i read or heard it.

It's possible, as is decreasing viscosity, and it has long been a popular thought, based on sugar dissolving more in warmer water. However, all the sugar that has been produced by a mash is already in solution (enzymes only work on starch in solution and produce sugar in solution), so you are just draining it away. I've never seen any evidence that you recover increased volume with a warmer running, which would happen if a measurable effect on viscosity was the cause. What a mashout probably does, for some brewers, is solubilize more starch and allow a final burst of amylase activity.

 

One point I wanted to make was, the mashout decoction I referenced above wasn't done in the pursuit of higher extract effiency;  my extract efficiency is normally 80-85% with a single batch sparge, which i'm more than satisfied with.

 

The main thing I'm trying to nail down is why my beer's clarity has recently gone from clear to much more murky than I'd like.  I think it's a worthwhile experiment to see if my next batch (which will get a mashout decoction) results in clarity like I was getting earlier this year.

 

If not, no big thing, but at least then i can cross this off the list of possible culprits.

 

Oh well, time for a beer, methinks.

Many of us never mashout and get great clarity, so a mashout is no requirement. pH is much more important to clarity. However, if you need a mashout to get complete conversion, you may have unconverted starch, which could lead to clarity problems.That's one reason to reach for high efficiency through complete conversion. The high efficiency isn't important, the complete conversion is, but the high efficiency is the result. An alpha rest at 158-162F would probably be more effective than a mashout, for solving that problem.   

 

JKor probably mentioned the most likely cause, if you got new base grain. Lots and brands of malt vary in pH, so if you are not controlling mash pH you can get haze from a new lot of malt.

[matt6150]

So when you guys say you don't do a mashout what exactly are you referring to? In a batch sparge for instance what would be the process then? I think I know just wanted to be sure.

[positiveContact]

So when you guys say you don't do a mashout what exactly are you referring to? In a batch sparge for instance what would be the process then? I think I know just wanted to be sure.

 

the mashout would be adding some amount of near boiling water to the mash and mixing it in just before you collect the first runnings.

[matt6150]

the mashout would be adding some amount of near boiling water to the mash and mixing it in just before you collect the first runnings.

OK, yeah never did that.

[positiveContact]

OK, yeah never did that.

 

I did it for a while when I thought there was one right grain:water ratio in the mash and that I was supposed to make the mash and spage runoffs the same size.

 

Now I mash as thin as I can, don't mash out and sparge with whatever didn't fit in the tun with the grain.

[matt6150]

I did it for a while when I thought there was one right grain:water ratio in the mash and that I was supposed to make the mash and spage runoffs the same size.

Now I mash as thin as I can, don't mash out and sparge with whatever didn't fit in the tun with the grain.

So what kind of efficiency do you get?