67 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

1.070 is what RR states .. but a few more points would not hurt anything IMO.

 

7.8% ABV to 9.2% ABV.  I get buzzed enough on mine as it is

[3rd party JKor]

Interesting. I always understood that lower mash temp could take longer for conversion. I've never had that issue mashing at 145-148* for my Saison's or Altbier's. I wish I could give you some accurate information on how many batches I've done and exact conversion times but cant. But there has been a lot! Its such a non issue for me I don't even take it into account. I guess you will just have to take my word for it. I'm sure mash thickness plays into this as well.

 

 

How are you testing for conversion?

[BlKtRe]

How are you testing for conversion?

 

Efficiency numbers and anticipated gravity. No need for an iodine test when I constantly hit those numbers. I will also check a gravity sample in the tun after my sparge. 

[3rd party JKor]

So you're getting the same efficiency regardless of mash temp?

[BlKtRe]

So you're getting the same efficiency regardless of mash temp?

 

I get 80% sometimes more regardless of style, mash temps, mash thickness, ales or lagers. But I'm a fly sparger. We have our privileges.....

[Brauer]

I get 80% sometimes more regardless of style, mash temps, mash thickness, ales or lagers. But I'm a fly sparger. We have our privileges.....

80% seems a little low for a sparged beer. That would tend to argue that you aren't getting complete conversion. It's hard to tell without a pre-sparge gravity and thickness, because it could be due to channelling of the sparge.

[positiveContact]

80% seems a little low for a sparged beer. That would tend to argue that you aren't getting complete conversion. It's hard to tell without a pre-sparge gravity and thickness, because it could be due to channelling of the sparge.

 

best way to check.

[3rd party JKor]

I usually take refrac measurements throughout the mash.  I've found my conversion levels off at about 45mins for 154 and time increases as temps go down, where i see more like 75-90 minutes at 147.  I don't get 100% conversion efficiency either, never have.  When my pH is on target, I tend to get in the ballpark 95% of theoretical conversion efficiency based on Kai's first wort gravity chart (great resource).  This is over many batches with typical brewhouse efficiencies around 85%.  Fly sparging usually ~45 mins.

[BlKtRe]

I refac my mash often. I'm most likely getting more than 80% + because I'm leaving plenty behind. With that said, the pro guys I know around here are mashing for 20 min before sparging. They are convinced conversion takes place in that time. Granted it takes them longer to sparge so conversion could still be taking place during that time. I was actually fairly surprised about this info from them. Surprised enough that I tried a few 30 min mashes then HERMS to mash out using my normal 80% setting in PM and proven recipes. My results were the same as my 60 min mashes. This tells me the mash has indeed converted and the only real reason homebrewers mash at least 60 min is because we are still waiting on our sparge water to heat up let alone that is what we were taught to do from the then old timers. 

[3rd party JKor]

I refac my mash often. I'm most likely getting more than 80% + because I'm leaving plenty behind. With that said, the pro guys I know around here are mashing for 20 min before sparging. They are convinced conversion takes place in that time. Granted it takes them longer to sparge so conversion could still be taking place during that time. I was actually fairly surprised about this info from them. Surprised enough that I tried a few 30 min mashes then HERMS to mash out using my normal 80% setting in PM and proven recipes. My results were the same as my 60 min mashes. This tells me the mash has indeed converted and the only real reason homebrewers mash at least 60 min is because we are still waiting on our sparge water to heat up let alone that is what we were taught to do from the then old timers. 

 

 

I certainly haven't seen conversion in 20 minutes.  Maybe if you have really good control on your mash (pro guys *should*), you can get it to convert that fast.  High diastatic power malt should help as well.

 

Mashing for 20 minutes and sparging for 40 minutes while keeping the bed in the alpha rest range would seem like a good way to speed things up, too.

[Brauer]

80% efficiency on a 12-14 Plato beer would imply about 92-95% conversion for a batch sparger. I would assume it means lower conversion for a fly sparger, but I don't have a good handle on how efficient a fly sparge is compared to a batch sparge. For comparison, I get 87% efficiency on a 12 Plato beer with ~97% conversion and a batch sparge. 

 

Since conversion has been seen to progress for longer than 30 minutes, I would think that if you see conversion fail to progress after 20-30 minutes, then there is something preventing complete conversion. This is one situation where an alpha amylase rest may help improve conversion, since one thing that can prevent complete conversion, especially late in the mash, is incomplete gelatinization. Pro breweries are usually a bad example for home breweries in this matter because they take proportionately longer to mash-in and sparge.

[HERMSman]

I saw a Facebook photo at RR tap menu. Elder was SG 1.080. Ask Vinnie?

[neddles]

I saw a Facebook photo at RR tap menu. Elder was SG 1.080. Ask Vinnie?

1.070 according to their website.

https://russianriver...liny-the-elder/

[BlKtRe]

80% efficiency on a 12-14 Plato beer would imply about 92-95% conversion for a batch sparger. I would assume it means lower conversion for a fly sparger, but I don't have a good handle on how efficient a fly sparge is compared to a batch sparge. For comparison, I get 87% efficiency on a 12 Plato beer with ~97% conversion and a batch sparge. 

 

Since conversion has been seen to progress for longer than 30 minutes, I would think that if you see conversion fail to progress after 20-30 minutes, then there is something preventing complete conversion. This is one situation where an alpha amylase rest may help improve conversion, since one thing that can prevent complete conversion, especially late in the mash, is incomplete gelatinization. Pro breweries are usually a bad example for home breweries in this matter because they take proportionately longer to mash-in and sparge.

 

I get what you are saying. But if conversion was not happening then gravity numbers wouldn't be hit. In my mind anyways. 

[HERMSman]

1.070 according to their website.

https://russianriver...liny-the-elder/

Production runs of Pliny are done in a dedicated facility. The brewpub brews it own version of Pliny and that is what was posted on their menu board. I want to try the brewpub version, 9.5 Abv will be tasty

[Brauer]

I get what you are saying. But if conversion was not happening then gravity numbers wouldn't be hit. In my mind anyways. 

Sure, I understand the gut feeling, and conversion is occurring, just not complete conversion, it seems. The gravity target is only being hit because the expected efficiency is set low. It sounds nice and consistent, though. Change it to the mathematically predicted efficiency for that OG beer, and the target would be missed. That's a lot easier for a batch sparge, but you would think that a fly sparge should at least meet the efficiency expectation of a batch sparge.

 

Since 80% efficiency would be expected from a ~17 Plato beer, batch sparging (mathematically, I've never made a 17 Plato beer to test that on my system), it could be that batch sparging is just more efficient than fly sparging at low gravity. That would account for a consistent 80% efficiency, it just isn't what I would expect.

[neddles]

Production runs of Pliny are done in a dedicated facility. The brewpub brews it own version of Pliny and that is what was posted on their menu board. I want to try the brewpub version, 9.5 Abv will be tasty

Didn't know there were two versions. Sounds tasty. Let us know how it turns out.

[3rd party JKor]

Sure, I understand the gut feeling, and conversion is occurring, just not complete conversion, it seems. The gravity target is only being hit because the expected efficiency is set low. It sounds nice and consistent, though. Change it to the mathematically predicted efficiency for that OG beer, and the target would be missed. That's a lot easier for a batch sparge, but you would think that a fly sparge should at least meet the efficiency expectation of a batch sparge.

 

Since 80% efficiency would be expected from a ~17 Plato beer, batch sparging (mathematically, I've never made a 17 Plato beer to test that on my system), it could be that batch sparging is just more efficient than fly sparging at low gravity. That would account for a consistent 80% efficiency, it just isn't what I would expect.

 

 

There are a lot more factors with fly sparging, which is why i think you see people getting wildly varying brewhouse efficiencies.  I used to run an hour fly sparge and there were times I'd hit over 90% brewhouse efficiency on mid-gravity beers.  I eventually decided the difference between 85% and 90% wasn't worth an extra 30 mins, so I've since cut that hour in half.

[3rd party JKor]

I'm determined to quantify the difference between single infusion and 145-158 step mashes.  Wednesday night I'm planning to run two small test mashes, one with 145x30/158x30 and one with 152x60.  Follow that with a forced ferment test to gauge fermentability of the resulting worts.  

[positiveContact]

I'm determined to quantify the difference between single infusion and 145-158 step mashes.  Wednesday night I'm planning to run two small test mashes, one with 145x30/158x30 and one with 152x60.  Follow that with a forced ferment test to gauge fermentability of the resulting worts.