222 replies to this topic

[positiveContact]

we are in the sulfur phase of the fermentation.

[positiveContact]

I've been ever so slowly ramping the temp up over the last couple of days.  right now I have the temp controller set to 13C (back at the start of fermentation it was around 9.5C).  the peak of activity was probably around 10C and I've been ramping it about 0.5C 2x per day (morning and night).  I'm not actually using a space heater, just allowing the temperature to naturally rise due to fermentation and the temperature outside the ferm chamber (low 60s).

 

I have to admit I'm still a little nervous.  I can smell the sulfur from across the basement.  there is also some other outgassing going on that smells a little strange to me.  it could just be something about the 833 that I missed last time.  once I see the airlock activity slow down I'll be pulling a sample to hopefully ease my fears and take a gravity sample.

[neddles]

For sulfur that hangs around I have used extended periods of warmish temps to let it off gas. I'm saying this because it tends to hang around a bit on those beers where I can smell it all over the basement. 

 

Meanwhile I am sheer-stressing the crap out of some 1450 right now.

[positiveContact]

For sulfur that hangs around I have used extended periods of warmish temps to let it off gas. I'm saying this because it tends to hang around a bit on those beers where I can smell it all over the basement. 

 

Meanwhile I am sheer-stressing the crap out of some 1450 right now.

 

how warm do you go?  I've typically only taken my lagers up to about 60F towards the end of fermentation.

[positiveContact]

I guess here I'm doing something like figure E but my initial slope up to 12C is not as steep.  I don't get to 12C until something like day 3.  Then of course I let it creep up a little further to 13C.

 

Edited by Evil_Morty, 14 October 2015 - 07:46 AM.

[neddles]

Usually whatever room temp is so 60-65. The blonde I did with 2124 this summer was probably at ~70F. It had a pretty good sulfur stink to it that was gone after about 3 wks in primary. If fermentation is done I'm not sure I've seen anything to tell me 70F would be bad. I just know that H2S is volatile so warmer should help to off gas it with the off-gassing CO2.

[HVB]

From teh Fast lagering method

 

• Chill wort to pitching temp (48-53F), pitch adequately sized starter (decanted), set regulator to initial fermentation temp (50-55F), and leave beer to ferment 5 days. (+5 days)

• On the morning of the 5th day (beer should be over 50% attenuated), remove probe from side of fermenter so it measures ambient temp inside chamber and bump regulator up 3F; continue raising ambient temp 3F every 12 hours or so until you reach 65F then leave it for 2-3 days to finish fermenting and cleaning up. (+2 days = 7 days)

• On about day 10, start ramping (ambient) temp down 5F every 12 hours until it reaches 30-32F and let it cold crash/lager for 3-4 more days. (+7 days = 14 days)

• Rack cold (and usually very clear) beer to kegs, put kegs in keezer on gas, leave for a week, serve! (+7 days = 21 days)

[positiveContact]

Usually whatever room temp is so 60-65. The blonde I did with 2124 this summer was probably at ~70F. It had a pretty good sulfur stink to it that was gone after about 3 wks in primary. If fermentation is done I'm not sure I've seen anything to tell me 70F would be bad. I just know that H2S is volatile so warmer should help to off gas it with the off-gassing CO2.

 

I'll probably just let it naturally rise up then.  My basement is at a nice temp.

 

I do sometimes worry about the space heater being too abrupt when I have to use it in the winter to keep fermentation temps up.

 

From teh Fast lagering method

 

• Chill wort to pitching temp (48-53F), pitch adequately sized starter (decanted), set regulator to initial fermentation temp (50-55F), and leave beer to ferment 5 days. (+5 days)

• On the morning of the 5th day (beer should be over 50% attenuated), remove probe from side of fermenter so it measures ambient temp inside chamber and bump regulator up 3F; continue raising ambient temp 3F every 12 hours or so until you reach 65F then leave it for 2-3 days to finish fermenting and cleaning up. (+2 days = 7 days)

• On about day 10, start ramping (ambient) temp down 5F every 12 hours until it reaches 30-32F and let it cold crash/lager for 3-4 more days. (+7 days = 14 days)

• Rack cold (and usually very clear) beer to kegs, put kegs in keezer on gas, leave for a week, serve! (+7 days = 21 days)

 

 

I'm betting I'm over 50% attenuated now.  it does look like I'm doing something similar to this though.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I use the fast ferment method on my lagers and ales and it works like a charm. Clean, clear beer at the end. 

[positiveContact]

okay, FG likely attained @ 1.011 which is what I was hoping for.  no obvious off flavors other than fairly normal "young, warm lager" tastes.  still very cloudy since we are only about a week in but I expect everything will be at least good.  we'll see if it's "great".

[denny]

okay, FG likely attained @ 1.011 which is what I was hoping for.  no obvious off flavors other than fairly normal "young, warm lager" tastes.  still very cloudy since we are only about a week in but I expect everything will be at least good.  we'll see if it's "great".

 

Or at least as good as if you made it the "old" way.

[positiveContact]

Or at least as good as if you made it the "old" way.

 

that would be tough to tell for me.  first time recipe and only 2nd time with the yeast.

 

any method that gets me the desired results is a contender for methods I might just use.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 18 October 2015 - 01:17 PM.

[denny]

that would be tough to tell for me.  first time recipe and only 2nd time with the yeast.

 

any method that gets me the desired results is a contender for methods I might just use.

 

That's what it's all about!

[SchwanzBrewer]

Interesting cross thread pollinator... in Kai's 2012 interview at NHC Australia he mentions that he had better results with his lagers when he let them ferment out completely in the stir plate. By better results he meant that the beer reached it's FG and that matched the FG of the fast ferment sample. Conversely he claimed that the FG was higher for his lagers that didn't ferment out in the starter.

 

To bring this on topic, this would be counter to what the claim is here for the shaking method. Now, I think you could argue that you need to pitch the lager yeast at high krausen and Kai's results were probably from pitching after high krausen when the yeasts health were deteriorating, but that wouldn't explain why his results were better when the yeast were ptiched after they floc out and go dormant.

 

I think this needs more exploration and empirical data.

[positiveContact]

Interesting cross thread pollinator... in Kai's 2012 interview at NHC Australia he mentions that he had better results with his lagers when he let them ferment out completely in the stir plate. By better results he meant that the beer reached it's FG and that matched the FG of the fast ferment sample. Conversely he claimed that the FG was higher for his lagers that didn't ferment out in the starter.

 

To bring this on topic, this would be counter to what the claim is here for the shaking method. Now, I think you could argue that you need to pitch the lager yeast at high krausen and Kai's results were probably from pitching after high krausen when the yeasts health were deteriorating, but that wouldn't explain why his results were better when the yeast were ptiched after they floc out and go dormant.

 

I think this needs more exploration and empirical data.

 

noticed that as well.  I did not do a FF test so I can't say for sure but the attenuation was about what I was expecting.  1.051 down to 1.011.

[Brauer]

Interesting cross thread pollinator... in Kai's 2012 interview at NHC Australia he mentions that he had better results with his lagers when he let them ferment out completely in the stir plate. By better results he meant that the beer reached it's FG and that matched the FG of the fast ferment sample. Conversely he claimed that the FG was higher for his lagers that didn't ferment out in the starter.

 

To bring this on topic, this would be counter to what the claim is here for the shaking method. Now, I think you could argue that you need to pitch the lager yeast at high krausen and Kai's results were probably from pitching after high krausen when the yeasts health were deteriorating, but that wouldn't explain why his results were better when the yeast were ptiched after they floc out and go dormant.

 

I think this needs more exploration and empirical data.

I think that it is wrong to think of the yeast health as deteriorating immediately after high krausen. Growth arrest is associated with high glycogen and trehalose content, which are at their maximum when the sugar is depleted from the starter, and which can help prepare the yeast for growth in the beer. This accumulation is associated with the increase in cell density that is probably part of the flocculation process. This argues that flocculating yeast are at their peak in preparedness for fermentation.

 

In fact, glycogen and trehalose stores can protect yeast from a type of stress associated with exposure to high levels of sugar, as in fresh wort, while in their rapid growth phase. Underpitching at low nutrient stores also makes the yeast more dependent on the nutrients in the wort, which are limited, potentially increasing lag and risking yeast stress responses, such as high sulfur production.

[positiveContact]

I think that it is wrong to think of the yeast health as deteriorating immediately after high krausen. Growth arrest is associated with high glycogen and trehalose content, which are at their maximum when the sugar is depleted from the starter, and which can help prepare the yeast for growth in the beer. This accumulation is associated with the increase in cell density that is probably part of the flocculation process. This argues that flocculating yeast are at their peak in preparedness for fermentation.

 

In fact, glycogen and trehalose stores can protect yeast from a type of stress associated with exposure to high levels of sugar, as in fresh wort, while in their rapid growth phase. Underpitching at low nutrient stores also makes the yeast more dependent on the nutrients in the wort, which are limited, potentially increasing lag and risking yeast stress responses, such as high sulfur production.

 

I saw plenty of that!  but it also doesn't seem very present even this early on in the game.  I just started crashing the beer last night so I'll know soon enough if there are any really obvious flaws.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Brauer, that makes a lot of sense.

 

Some conflicting things though. When you pitch you want more growth, not fermentation. (I'm not totally sold on that as I could see the benefit to a large pitch starting fast for microbiological stability and possibly to reduce off flavor compound production - but this could be construed as getting close to overpitching which is also said to produce off flavor compounds)

 

So what I'm getting at is there has to be a sweet spot for your strain and wort makeup that is the best time to pitch. I don't think there's a one size fits all solution.

[positiveContact]

Brauer, that makes a lot of sense.

 

Some conflicting things though. When you pitch you want more growth, not fermentation. (I'm not totally sold on that as I could see the benefit to a large pitch starting fast for microbiological stability and possibly to reduce off flavor compound production - but this could be construed as getting close to overpitching which is also said to produce off flavor compounds)

 

So what I'm getting at is there has to be a sweet spot for your strain and wort makeup that is the best time to pitch. I don't think there's a one size fits all solution.

 

I still think there is a "one size fits most" though.  maybe slightly different rules for ales and lagers.  maybe skew slightly one way or another if you looking for increase or decrease of this or that dependent on beer style and yeast strain.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I still think there is a "one size fits most" though.  maybe slightly different rules for ales and lagers.  maybe skew slightly one way or another if you looking for increase or decrease of this or that dependent on beer style and yeast strain.

 

It's those nuances and tweaks that are important to me for repeatability. Mostly I think it's important for timing (scheduling) and apparent attenuation. If I were just homebrewing I'd call myself nuts for worrying about that kind of minutiae.