27 replies to this topic

[HVB]

Anyone here do it and if so what were your results.  I am thinking of doing a Berliner Weise this way.  My plan would be to:

 

1- run off to the kettle

2 - chill to about 110

3 - add in .5# if unmilled grain

4 - keep at about 120 till the pH is aroudn 3.5

5 - pull grain add a smidge of hops and boil for 15

6 - chill

7 - ferment out with s-05

 

 

What am I missing or what should I change.  Is a lab culture going to be a lot better than unmilled grains?

[BlKtRe]

Ive kettle soured but I dont use a sour mash. Otherwise, your plan seems valid. 

[neddles]

How do you plan you keep O2 off of the grain/wort? 

 

I let mine go until 3.43 with the Omega yeast blend before pitching sac. Mine is bracingly sour. Not a bad beer but the drinkability is somewhat limited IMO. Next time I will check sooner and probably pitch sac or boil at 3.6-3.7

 

One method I want to try is to make a starter with grain and ferment it in a O2 free flask then add that to the purged of O2 carboy

Edited by neddles, 20 January 2016 - 01:20 PM.

[HVB]

Ive kettle soured but I dont use a sour mash. Otherwise, your plan seems valid. 

I do not plan on sour mashing.

How do you plan you keep O2 off of the grain/wort? 

 

I let mine go until 3.43 with the Omega yeast blend before pitching sac. Mine is bracingly sour. Not a bad beer but the drinkability is somewhat limited IMO. Next time I will check sooner and probably pitch sac or boil at 3.6-3.7

 

One method I want to try is to make a starter with grain and ferment it in a O2 free flask then add that to the purged of O2 carboy

I am still up in the air about how to keep the O2 out.  I can over the top of the kettle with saran wrap after purging with CO2 or I can set up a C02 line into the kettle and set the regulator at about 1-2 psi, not sure.

[neddles]

I do not plan on sour mashing.

I am still up in the air about how to keep the O2 out.  I can over the top of the kettle with saran wrap after purging with CO2 or I can set up a C02 line into the kettle and set the regulator at about 1-2 psi, not sure.

Do you have a glass carboy you could keep warm? IOW what's the logic behind why you want to keep it in the kettle?

[HVB]

Do you have a glass carboy you could keep warm? IOW what's the logic behind why you want to keep it in the kettle?

I just sold my last 4 glass carboys!

 

I want to keep it in the kettle till it is done souring and then boil it.  I do not want to have to move to a fermetner then move back to finish it off. 

I am not stuck on doing it this way, just something I have not tried. 

[neddles]

I just sold my last 4 glass carboys!

 

I want to keep it in the kettle till it is done souring and then boil it.  I do not want to have to move to a fermetner then move back to finish it off. 

Got it. From what I have read (no experience with this) I think your saran wrap method is probably preferred. Alone or in combination with some CO2 purging. Seems like BBM did that for his Gose? I have had a couple of commercial berliners now that had faint hints of butyric flavors and that's all it takes to ruin it for me.

 

ETA: What you need is one of JKor's lids for your kettle.

Edited by neddles, 20 January 2016 - 01:31 PM.

[HVB]

 

 

ETA: What you need is one of JKor's lids for your kettle.

 

There is no reason why I could not seal my lid.  I have plenty of 1/2 silicone tubing to make a gasket and I have clamps.

[neddles]

There is no reason why I could not seal my lid.  I have plenty of 1/2 silicone tubing to make a gasket and I have clamps.

Well if it's not hard to do that may be a good way to go. Were it me I would do that purge the headspace in the kettle and use the saran wrap. 

 

Otherwise your process looks solid based on what I know. One other thing to consider would be to drop the pH in the kettle with lactic acid to 4.5. Not only will it help you retain some head forming proteins but also help to ensure no pathogenic organisms get a foothold in there. 

[2ndstage]

I've done it.  Way better than my carboy soured versions.  One thing, don't do this in an Aluminum kettle.  Etched the crap out of mine the first time I did it.  I do BIAB so I mash, remove the bag with grain then flood with CO2 and cover with saran wrap and pop on the lid and weight it down.

 

Come back 3-4 days later and do a quick 15 min boil to sanitize then chill and finish ferment with some sach.

Pretty amazing results even if it breaks every brewing rule I know.

[HVB]

I've done it.  Way better than my carboy soured versions.  One thing, don't do this in an Aluminum kettle.  Etched the crap out of mine the first time I did it.  I do BIAB so I mash, remove the bag with grain then flood with CO2 and cover with saran wrap and pop on the lid and weight it down.

 

Come back 3-4 days later and do a quick 15 min boil to sanitize then chill and finish ferment with some sach.

Pretty amazing results even if it breaks every brewing rule I know.

All SS here so I am good.  What did you do to keep the temp of the kettle up?

[neddles]

I've done it.  Way better than my carboy soured versions.  One thing, don't do this in an Aluminum kettle.  Etched the crap out of mine the first time I did it.  I do BIAB so I mash, remove the bag with grain then flood with CO2 and cover with saran wrap and pop on the lid and weight it down.

 

Come back 3-4 days later and do a quick 15 min boil to sanitize then chill and finish ferment with some sach.

Pretty amazing results even if it breaks every brewing rule I know.

Interesting. What do you think it was about the vessel mattered so much in your case?

Edited by neddles, 21 January 2016 - 09:15 AM.

[2ndstage]

The main difference is that I did not use anything to inoculate the kettle soured batch.  Whatever was on the grain fermented it.  Just added some 05 after the boil.  Just more interesting more than anything.  The carboy versions I usually dose with a lacto culture for 4.5 days and try to keep at 100 or so till sour enough then finish with a neutral yeast.  Better than a beer dosed with lactic acid but not as complex as the natural fermented version.  You could probably replicate it by culturing up some grain as a source culture and then grow that up and pitch it.  ie soak some grains in wort for a few days till it starts growing then pitch that in the carboy.

[2ndstage]

As for the temp control, this was done in August so it was hot as hell in my brewhouse.  I have a 10x14 building on a slab with windows and such.  I put a window unit in and controlled it with a johnson controller set to 110 to keep it from getting too hot in there.  Didn't run much but didn't want to to go up to 140+ in there in the texas heat.

[HVB]

As for the temp control, this was done in August so it was hot as hell in my brewhouse.  I have a 10x14 building on a slab with windows and such.  I put a window unit in and controlled it with a johnson controller set to 110 to keep it from getting too hot in there.  Didn't run much but didn't want to to go up to 140+ in there in the texas heat.

I missed your location!  Surprised you needed any supplemental heat

[neddles]

The main difference is that I did not use anything to inoculate the kettle soured batch.  Whatever was on the grain fermented it.  Just added some 05 after the boil.  Just more interesting more than anything.  The carboy versions I usually dose with a lacto culture for 4.5 days and try to keep at 100 or so till sour enough then finish with a neutral yeast.  Better than a beer dosed with lactic acid but not as complex as the natural fermented version.  You could probably replicate it by culturing up some grain as a source culture and then grow that up and pitch it.  ie soak some grains in wort for a few days till it starts growing then pitch that in the carboy.

Thanks for clarifying that. Yeah based on everything I have read that makes total sense to me. Most people seem to get more complexity from the grain inoculations than lab culture. That is what I want to try next time. 

[SchwanzBrewer]

Interesting that this came up, we discussed this at my homebrew club meeting last night. The consensus among the people that regularly do this was to make a starter using crushed grains. The next best thing was the Omega blend, but it was hard to come by.

 

We did a tasting of berlinner weiss from one of the club members that won BOS at the Queen of Beer comp in california. She won with a strawberry rhubarb berlinner. It is fecking fantastic (obviously). We compared her standard berlinner with a renowned one called Athena (https://www.creature...eer.com/athena/). The Athena was perfect. It's absolutely the definition of a standard berlinner. Everything is in proper balance with that beer. Mary's standard was noticeably more lactic, but the strawberry rhubarb had that same perfect balance.

 

A couple notes... use some lactic acid to get the wort into the right PH range for the starter. She does nothing to worry about O2, she just covers the kettle. She uses a 1.5 qt mason jar for the starter and puts it in a small water bath that is kept at 90 degrees (I need to check that temp) with an aquarium heater. I'll get the notes from the meeting and post them in a bit.

[HVB]

Interesting that this came up, we discussed this at my homebrew club meeting last night. The consensus among the people that regularly do this was to make a starter using crushed grains. The next best thing was the Omega blend, but it was hard to come by.

 

We did a tasting of berlinner weiss from one of the club members that won BOS at the Queen of Beer comp in california. She won with a strawberry rhubarb berlinner. It is fecking fantastic (obviously). We compared her standard berlinner with a renowned one called Athena (https://www.creature...eer.com/athena/). The Athena was perfect. It's absolutely the definition of a standard berlinner. Everything is in proper balance with that beer. Mary's standard was noticeably more lactic, but the strawberry rhubarb had that same perfect balance.

 

A couple notes... use some lactic acid to get the wort into the right PH range for the starter. She does nothing to worry about O2, she just covers the kettle. She uses a 1.5 qt mason jar for the starter and puts it in a small water bath that is kept at 90 degrees (I need to check that temp) with an aquarium heater. I'll get the notes from the meeting and post them in a bit.

Thanks, that is helpful.  I look forward to reading the notes.

[neddles]

I used the Omega blend which is L. Plantarum and L. Brevis. Plantarum will sour very quickly even at room temp so it is quick and extremely convenient. But I can see where some increased complexity would come from a grain inoculation. I would probably use this starter procedure if making one from grain. https://www.fiveblad...-starter-guide/

[HVB]

I used the Omega blend which is L. Plantarum and L. Brevis. Plantarum will sour very quickly even at room temp so it is quick and extremely convenient. But I can see where some increased complexity would come from a grain inoculation. I would probably use this starter procedure if making one from grain. https://www.fiveblad...-starter-guide/

I may give that starter a go this weekend.  Looks pretty easy.