28 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

... Maybe it was because I was drinking something else before this (a blonde ale made with 1028) but when I tapped a glass of this pilsner (made with Weyermann Pils, some Munich, Hallertau and 2124), it tasted a little "dirty". I'm going to try some eventually where it will be my first beer of the day but I thought I remember Chils and others saying something about this malt occasionally tasting this way. This WAS NOT the floor-malted stuff... just the standard Weyermann Pils. I remember hearing that these malts were inconsistent and I thought "Earthy" and "dirty" were used to describe it. There was a bit of yeast in the two glasses I drank so that may play a part too. Thoughts?

[SchwanzBrewer]

Dirty? Earthy? Sounds more like hop descriptors.

 

I use a lot of Weyermann pils (not floor malted) and in using it around 30-40 times I can't say I've encountered that.

 

For instance the Kolsch I tapped last night was fantastic and it used weyermann pils.

[positiveContact]

I use best malz pils.  I would describe it as "grainy" more than anything.  Sort of a fresh smell of a field of grain.  maybe that's considered earthy?

[Big Nake]

I'm going to put it out of my head until I can taste it again with a relatively clean palate. I had a few beers yesterday before I sampled the pils and we had a bunch of SB eats out on the bar so my tastebuds could have been furschimmelled (as my grandmother would have said). I'll report back on it. I did not get the feeling that it was a hop issue... although I have had my share of hops that didn't seem to behave properly, this didn't seem that way.

[neddles]

My palate frequently plays games with me based on what I have been drinking or eating prior. I've mentioned it before but depending on what you have eaten recently a perfectly good beer can act like it has a big whack of astringency to it. Walnuts are very guilty of doing this.

[positiveContact]

My palate frequently plays games with me based on what I have been drinking or eating prior. I've mentioned it before but depending on what you have eaten recently a perfectly good beer can act like it has a big whack of astringency to it. Walnuts are very guilty of doing this.

 

yeup.  also anything like sour patch kids or fireballs.

[SchwanzBrewer]

My palate frequently plays games with me based on what I have been drinking or eating prior. I've mentioned it before but depending on what you have eaten recently a perfectly good beer can act like it has a big whack of astringency to it. Walnuts are very guilty of doing this.

 

Medicines too.

[Big Nake]

Medicines for sure. Having a cold too, although I generally don't drink beer when I have a cold. It could have been all of the above... drinking something else, eating a bunch of different things and the fact that it was still a little yeasty (pretty sure I gelled this one in the keg so there would be a heavy layer of sludge on the keg bottom). But this was also the first beer I made with Weyermann Pils in a very long time. I also made a helles with the floor-malted pils which has been lagering in a keg since 1/7 and initial taste tests were very encouraging. I'll report back.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Hops are known viral suppressors. Just sayin'.

[Big Nake]

Okay so I went down and gave this beer another taste test just now. It's got a slight harsh, astringent thing going on which is weird. I went and dug out my notes. It looks like the temp dropped or else I did not bring my mash water high enough to start with and my mash temp was about 146° which is unusual for me... I typically aim higher and let it come down. I took some of my sparge water, gave it a little lactic acid and heated it to boiling but it didn't make much difference. So according to my notes I grabbed some of the mash schputz in a pot and heated that on the stove almost like a decoction. I got it to boiling and added it back to the main mash and my temp was 149.6° and I left it there. Everything else went smoothly with the batch. Would that last step cause this flavor? I would not call the beer "passable" or having a slight flaw. It's quite unpleasant to drink and I have moved it back to my on-deck fridge and replaced it with a helles that has been lagering since 1/7... it was made with Weyermann Floor Malted pils and it's delicious as I would expect. This is a bummer because I'm pretty sure that this beer is permanently funky and it was just one of two "pale lagers" I had in the pipeline. I'll have to make a blonde ale next time I make an ale and probably make another pils or helles on the next lager.

[neddles]

Okay so I went down and gave this beer another taste test just now. It's got a slight harsh, astringent thing going on which is weird. I went and dug out my notes. It looks like the temp dropped or else I did not bring my mash water high enough to start with and my mash temp was about 146° which is unusual for me... I typically aim higher and let it come down. I took some of my sparge water, gave it a little lactic acid and heated it to boiling but it didn't make much difference. So according to my notes I grabbed some of the mash schputz in a pot and heated that on the stove almost like a decoction. I got it to boiling and added it back to the main mash and my temp was 149.6° and I left it there. Everything else went smoothly with the batch. Would that last step cause this flavor? I would not call the beer "passable" or having a slight flaw. It's quite unpleasant to drink and I have moved it back to my on-deck fridge and replaced it with a helles that has been lagering since 1/7... it was made with Weyermann Floor Malted pils and it's delicious as I would expect. This is a bummer because I'm pretty sure that this beer is permanently funky and it was just one of two "pale lagers" I had in the pipeline. I'll have to make a blonde ale next time I make an ale and probably make another pils or helles on the next lager.

Is it possible you left the lactic acid out of the mash water? Did you check the mash pH? Does it have that grainy/husky flavor?

[Big Nake]

I put the lactic acid into the mash as my notes show. I recorded the pH, added a little more lactic acid, etc. I added some acid to the small amount of sparge water I heated and added to the mash. I also made sure my sparge water (what was left of it) was at the right pH level too... all in my notes. I'm only grabbing onto that one nutty situation because I generally wouldn't be doing that. I know it sounds weird that these measures would have caused this flavor because people do decoctions, right? It's really strange but there's gotta be something there. My dilemma now is... I have used this blob of 2124 5 times now (pilsner, helles, bordertown dark lager, red lager, Czech amber). Do I risk it and make a helles with it next time? I would have ordinarily retired it by now.

[cavman]

Did 146 bother you that much? I intentionally mash that low at times.

[Brauer]

... I know it sounds weird that these measures would have caused this flavor because people do decoctions, right? It's really strange but there's gotta be something there. My dilemma now is... I have used this blob of 2124 5 times now (pilsner, helles, bordertown dark lager, red lager, Czech amber). Do I risk it and make a helles with it next time? I would have ordinarily retired it by now.

I've used Weyermann Pilsner many times, and even decocted it a couple times, without any off flavor, let alone one that I could describe as "dirty". It's a nice malt. Usually I would describe it as bready.  I don't think either of those factors would normally cause the problem, unless that bag of malt was off or the decoction was scorched. The only malt flavor I can think of that might seem dirty might come from moldy malt

 

If you have clean practices, you can use a yeast a lot more than 5 times. I find that some yeasts even perform better after a batch or two. But, if you have a contamination running around your brewery, you could have problems after 1 re-pitch. I can't think of a yeast problem that I would describe as "dirty" except maybe diacetyl (diacetyl tasted really foul to me, which might be my perception of the buttered-hops combination). Diacetyl could be a result of incomplete fermentation, or it could be a sign of contamination.

 

I agree that "dirty/earthy" is something that I would normally associate with hops.

[Big Nake]

Did 146 bother you that much? I intentionally mash that low at times.

On my system 146° is a good 3-4° lower than I have ever mashed for any beer and I would typically mash a pils at 150° so I envisioned an ultra-dry (too dry) beer at 146.

[SchwanzBrewer]

On my system 146° is a good 3-4° lower than I have ever mashed for any beer and I would typically mash a pils at 150° so I envisioned an ultra-dry (too dry) beer at 146.

 

Well did it finish any lower than expected?

[Big Nake]

Well did it finish any lower than expected?

I would consider the beer to be on the dry side but it's tough to get a good feel for the beer's character with this flavor flaw in the way. If this dirty-Earthy flavor wasn't there, would the beer be overly dry or would it be good? I think it would be good actually but remember that the beer ended up at 149.6° for the majority of the mash which I consider to be in the kill zone for a pilsner on my system.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I would consider the beer to be on the dry side but it's tough to get a good feel for the beer's character with this flavor flaw in the way. If this dirty-Earthy flavor wasn't there, would the beer be overly dry or would it be good? I think it would be good actually but remember that the beer ended up at 149.6° for the majority of the mash which I consider to be in the kill zone for a pilsner on my system.

 

Dryness is an absence of sweetness, usually but not entirely related to FG. So did it finish low or don't you have a reading? (You can take a sample and let it off gas for  several hours and take a hydromter reading).

 

Could be several things... you might have accidentally had some cleaner in the fermenter, was the malt dry or was it damp (possibly moldy), might have scorched the decoction, might have caught a wild yeast, might have had old hops, might have had chlorine in gel solution?. If you store the malt, check it. Hops are easy to check too.

 

If the flavor doesn't go away in a week or two, dump it. No reason to keep bad beer.

[positiveContact]

are there any animals that really like beer?  i'd feel better if instead of dumping I gave it to them so they could have a good time.

[Big Nake]

Dryness is an absence of sweetness, usually but not entirely related to FG. So did it finish low or don't you have a reading? (You can take a sample and let it off gas for  several hours and take a hydromter reading).
 
Could be several things... you might have accidentally had some cleaner in the fermenter, was the malt dry or was it damp (possibly moldy), might have scorched the decoction, might have caught a wild yeast, might have had old hops, might have had chlorine in gel solution?. If you store the malt, check it. Hops are easy to check too.
 
If the flavor doesn't go away in a week or two, dump it. No reason to keep bad beer.

I always clean and wipe out my plastic primaries so there shouldn't have been any cleanser in there. The malt is always kept closed up in my dark, cool and dry basement... no mold or dampness. I could have scorched the decoction but I would have already been squeamish about heating it that way as it was so my guess is that I saw it coming to a boil and quickly just added it back to the main mash. Wild yeast and old hops are possible although most of my hops were recently purchased. I only used bottled water to make a gel solution so there shouldn't have been any chlorine in question. I plan to taste test it again in a week or so and ditch it if there is no clear improvement. There are other beers to keg. Cheers and thanks for the replies... always good to bounce this stuff around and