313 replies to this topic

[Brauer]

I often say that there is often little correlation between what a homebrewer and commercial brewer do.  But in this case, since these guys are trying to recreate commercial beer, I though it might be more applicable.

I think it might have been Drez or Neddles that might have mentioned that oxidation has the potential to be a greater risk at the homebrewer level because of the increase in surface area to volume on the smaller scale. That seems a reasonable consideration.

[neddles]

I think it might have been Drez or Neddles that might have mentioned that oxidation has the potential to be a greater risk at the homebrewer level because of the increase in surface area to volume on the smaller scale. That seems a reasonable consideration.

 

An interesting aspect of this is that (IMO) large-scale brewing is naturally going to have less DO than typical homebrewing, purely based on the volume of liquid being handled and the more controlled methodology for transfers.  What I mean is that you will generally have less surface area per volume in the larger scale systems.  

It was JKor. But don't let that cloud the potential validity of his theory! 

[denny]

I think it might have been Drez or Neddles that might have mentioned that oxidation has the potential to be a greater risk at the homebrewer level because of the increase in surface area to volume on the smaller scale. That seems a reasonable consideration.

 

Yeah, interesting thought.  Wonder if it holds true?  Could be an experiment waiting to happen. I wonder where the "break point" is...will a 1 gal. batch have more potential than a 5 gal. batch? 

[neddles]

Yeah, interesting thought.  Wonder if it holds true?  Could be an experiment waiting to happen. I wonder where the "break point" is...will a 1 gal. batch have more potential than a 5 gal. batch? 

Who's 30bbl brewery are you going to borrow for the experiment?

Edited by neddles, 29 April 2016 - 11:08 AM.

[JMcG]

Not scientific in any way. But I wasn't trying to change the way people make beer, just trying to solve an obvious problem in my own brewery. Of course, that doesn't stop me from recommending it as a possible way to reduce tannin.

 

I crush pretty fine, not crazy fine, though, I don't think. However, I also need to store my grain with desiccant, or it rots. Rehydrating the husks makes a visually dramatic difference in the quality of the husks that it might not make if you store your grain at high humidity. 

Yes, I've also noted much less powder when I mill and haven't needed to clean the bearings on the malt mill for quite a while.

[Big Nake]

As I noodle with this, I envision that I might be able to use some of these ideas and even if I don't achieve "beer nirvana" by doing everything perfectly, it's possible that I could use some of these ideas to improve my beer and introduce less O2 to the process. If the beers I have been making have suffered from oxidation and I address that, I should see an improvement which is all I have ever hoped to get out of any homebrewing idea. The only part of this equation that makes me squeamish is the SMB because I have never used it and I know nothing about it. Does anyone with experience have an opinion on using it, using less of it, skipping it, etc? My new SS chiller arrived yesterday and my high-temp tubing and SMB will probably be arriving early this coming week. Next weekend I could attempt a "lower-O2" brewday... condition the malt, boil the strike water and chill to mash temps, rack from pot to MT, stir less, do the same for sparge water, recirc and run off quietly (less splashing), boil lower, chill with SS with less-vigorous stirring, skip secondary and go to a keg with a smidge of priming solution to drive off O2, etc. But the SMB is a mystery to me. My calcs say to use 1.7g of it in the mash and just a smidge in the sparge.

[positiveContact]

I think campden tablets contain SMB.  I use them but at a much, much lower dosage to remove chlorine/chloramines from my tap water.  I think I'm using something like 1/10 of what they are suggesting.

[Big Nake]

I guess I just wonder if I should use less and try to get some benefit without the potential downside of yeast health issues or flavor contributions that I'm not expecting. Also, I picked up another hose connection and fashioned it with about 8 to 10" (tho?) of new tubing and planned to use that for my recircing. Send the wort through the tubing and into the glass measuring cup I typically use for the recirc. This won't eliminate O2 pickup but should reduce it.

[positiveContact]

scratch that - my campden tablets are PMB, not SMB.

[Big Nake]

And what did they say about PMB? The potassium is also problematic for yeast health?

[positiveContact]

And what did they say about PMB? The potassium is also problematic for yeast health?

 

not sure.  maybe bad at levels as high as they are talking about?

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

The way I read it, you use either the smb or ferment in the keg. Not both. SMB will kill your yeast.

[denny]

As I noodle with this, I envision that I might be able to use some of these ideas and even if I don't achieve "beer nirvana" by doing everything perfectly, it's possible that I could use some of these ideas to improve my beer and introduce less O2 to the process. If the beers I have been making have suffered from oxidation and I address that, I should see an improvement which is all I have ever hoped to get out of any homebrewing idea. The only part of this equation that makes me squeamish is the SMB because I have never used it and I know nothing about it. Does anyone with experience have an opinion on using it, using less of it, skipping it, etc? My new SS chiller arrived yesterday and my high-temp tubing and SMB will probably be arriving early this coming week. Next weekend I could attempt a "lower-O2" brewday... condition the malt, boil the strike water and chill to mash temps, rack from pot to MT, stir less, do the same for sparge water, recirc and run off quietly (less splashing), boil lower, chill with SS with less-vigorous stirring, skip secondary and go to a keg with a smidge of priming solution to drive off O2, etc. But the SMB is a mystery to me. My calcs say to use 1.7g of it in the mash and just a smidge in the sparge.

 

Ken, as I've said, I used both SMB and PMB for a couple years to study their effects on the beer.  I used varying amounts both in the water and the mash.  I'm pretty used I used less than the amount they recommend, and I found it had no effect on the beer.  I would be leery to go any higher due to the increased sodium.  So, that's my experience with using it at a reduced level.

And what did they say about PMB? The potassium is also problematic for yeast health?

 

Yes, they seem to think it's much more problematic than SMB.

[positiveContact]

The way I read it, you use either the smb or ferment in the keg. Not both. SMB will kill your yeast.

 

?

 

the SMB in this case is being used in the mash so if there is going to be a ferm problem it doesn't matter where you ferment.

[positiveContact]

I just had some munich helles I brewed back in the fall.  still really good beer.  great malt aroma.  I dunno what else to say???

[Brauer]

I guess I just wonder if I should use less and try to get some benefit without the potential downside of yeast health issues or flavor contributions that I'm not expecting.

One needs 17 mg/gallon (0.017 g/gallon or 4.5 ppm) sodium metabisulfite to neutralize oxidizers like chloramine, but up to 51 mg/gallon (0.051 g/gallon or 13.5 ppm) is commonly considered safe. That upper value might be a good place to start if you wanted some of the benefits without going overboard.

[positiveContact]

One needs 17 mg/gallon (0.017 g/gallon or 4.5 ppm) sodium metabisulfite to neutralize oxidizers like chloramine, but up to 51 mg/gallon (0.051 g/gallon or 13.5 ppm) is commonly considered safe. That upper value might be a good place to start if you wanted some of the benefits without going overboard.

 

safe for what?  yeast?  human consumption?

[Brauer]

Also, I picked up another hose connection and fashioned it with about 8 to 10" (tho?) of new tubing and planned to use that for my recircing. Send the wort through the tubing and into the glass measuring cup I typically use for the recirc. This won't eliminate O2 pickup but should reduce it.

That's how I do it. I submerge the end of the tube as much as possible to keep the wort from falling through the air.

By the way, each 1 ppm of sodium metabisulfate will add 0.24 ppm of sodium to your strike water.

[Brauer]

safe for what? yeast? human consumption?

Those , but really
just safe for brewing (no flavor contribution or yeast effects). I didn't bother look up what the upper limit for yeast or human toxicity are, but that should be under those.

Edited by Brauer, 01 May 2016 - 11:46 AM.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

?

the SMB in this case is being used in the mash so if there is going to be a ferm problem it doesn't matter where you ferment.

I was referring to the 5-10 mg/l the paper says to add at packaging.