313 replies to this topic

[HVB]

Nancy.

Truthfully I like dry for convenience because with little kids I may not be able to brew when I want.  Recently I have been using the 007 starter method and that has been working for me but would still not be enough for this.  I could make this work with minimal changes, I use an all copper CFC, I already ferment is sealed vessels and do all CO2 transfers.  But like was specified you cannot go part way into this and I am not going to change my chiller anytime soon.

[denny]

hahahaha, yes, predicted.   I'm not Bryan, I'm me. 

 

And I really appreciate that, Brandon.  One of him is plenty.

[positiveContact]

Truthfully I like dry for convenience because with little kids I may not be able to brew when I want.  Recently I have been using the 007 starter method and that has been working for me but would still not be enough for this.  I could make this work with minimal changes, I use an all copper CFC, I already ferment is sealed vessels and do all CO2 transfers.  But like was specified you cannot go part way into this and I am not going to change my chiller anytime soon.

 

there are a lot of things I'd have to change.  the really obvious barriers to entry:

1) copper IC, unlikely to change this any time soon due to expense.

2) my fermentor doesn't seal up enough to do a true "closed fermentation".

3) same as 2, completely closed transfer is not really possible.

 

all that being said, my munich helles is damn good!

[HVB]

there are a lot of things I'd have to change.  the really obvious barriers to entry:

1) copper IC, unlikely to change this any time soon due to expense.

2) my fermentor doesn't seal up enough to do a true "closed fermentation".

3) same as 2, completely closed transfer is not really possible.

 

all that being said, my munich helles is damn good!

 As for #2 I think that is operator error

[positiveContact]

 As for #2 I think that is operator error

 

I like tossing you a few softballs every now and then

[bbrew]

did you guys perform any experiments?  unless a change is easy to make (and this one isn't) I don't just try stuff on a whim.

We have been performing experiments, researching, brewing and rebrewing since last August.  Initially able to get the mash to have the right aroma, it would lose the qualities in the boil or during fermentation.  We stepped through each part of the process and sealed up (literally) problem spots until we could get the flavors to carry through to the finished beer. 

[positiveContact]

We have been performing experiments, researching, brewing and rebrewing since last August.  Initially able to get the mash to have the right aroma, it would lose the qualities in the boil or during fermentation.  We stepped through each part of the process and sealed up (literally) problem spots until we could get the flavors to carry through to the finished beer. 

 

is there a plan to show your work?

[denny]

What about what a real scientist like Charlie Bamforth has to say?  Are decoction mashes a problem becasue of the increased O2 pickup?

[positiveContact]

What about what a real scientist like Charlie Bamforth has to say?  Are decoction mashes a problem becasue of the increased O2 pickup?

 

are you trying to make heads explode?

 

another thing is the "no copper" statement.  don't a lot of European breweries use copper kettles?  or at least very recently did.

 

pilsner urquell has been using copper for quite some time it seems: https://pilsnerurque...le/copper-tanks

Edited by Evil_Morty, 25 April 2016 - 12:07 PM.

[Big Nake]

I have also said that my helles is good. I consider it "good". It is satisfying to drink and I enjoy it. So I have some options... see if I can adapt my system to be able to do this properly and then see if I notice a big difference in the beer. Then the next step is to see if I want to add this much additional work to the brewday. Boiling and chilling the mash and sparge water will add a good amount of time and I'm already in the habit of finding ways to trim time. I would think the boiling and chilling alone would add an hour. Racking water to the MT instead of just pouring it would add more time. So... a lot to consider.

[bbrew]

What about what a real scientist like Charlie Bamforth has to say?  Are decoction mashes a problem becasue of the increased O2 pickup?

I would be curious to get Charlie's thoughts. 

[SchwanzBrewer]

I don't mind that you guys think the beer is better through this process, I can't say for sure though, and it's difficult to accept what amounts to anecdotal evidence and opinion on taste as fact. I think that doing blind taste tests are in order to determine if your results are statistically significant. I am in no way belittling your research, process, or dedication to brewing a great Helles or any german beer for that matter. There are scientific ways to quantify these results as accurate or not and I would like to see you guys take that next step.

[Big Nake]

I could see a group of guys working on this for 9 months and wanting to be onto something and when that latest test batch was done... by God it was unbelievable! But for everyone in the group to just assume it's better without one person saying that it was no better than anything else... that would be unusual I think. But I could see a Exbeeriment coming out of this. Make a helles (or whichever German style you think of) the old-school way and then another one that's low-O2. Do a blind test and see what's up.

Let me also throw this out there: If the low-O2 idea protects the flavors of malt and hops from oxidation, would all styles of beer benefit from this concept? Bitters, pale ales, West Coast Lagers, etc. would all have amplified malt and hop character that would not exist when made the regular way. Is that safe to say?

[positiveContact]

I could see a group of guys working on this for 9 months and wanting to be onto something and when that latest test batch was done... by God it was unbelievable! But for everyone in the group to just assume it's better without one person saying that it was no better than anything else... that would be unusual I think. But I could see a Exbeeriment coming out of this. Make a helles (or whichever German style you think of) the old-school way and then another one that's low-O2. Do a blind test and see what's up.

 

the group was highly self selected and it's easy to get caught up in the moment.

 

eta:  I should say I suspect it was highly self selected based on what I know about the german brewing forum.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 25 April 2016 - 12:43 PM.

[Big Nake]

You sound like a non-believer. I understand the idea of being skeptical but I try to stay open-minded because... as I always say... I'm a student of this hobby and finding new ways to improve my beer interests me. I don't know that I will be able to test this without a lot of prep work and with brewing always being the lowest on the priority totem pole, it may be awhile before I get there.

[positiveContact]

You sound like a non-believer. I understand the idea of being skeptical but I try to stay open-minded because... as I always say... I'm a student of this hobby and finding new ways to improve my beer interests me. I don't know that I will be able to test this without a lot of prep work and with brewing always being the lowest on the priority totem pole, it may be awhile before I get there.

 

I'm open minded.  I also want some proof.

[Big Nake]

My guess is that proof will come to you one of two ways... you try it for yourself and see if the beer is vastly different than what you have made before (probably the best proof you can get) or Marshall does an Exbeeriment and his group concludes overwhelmingly that the low-O2 beer is better (not as good because you have not tasted the experimental beers yourself but still good information).

[positiveContact]

My guess is that proof will come to you one of two ways... you try it for yourself and see if the beer is vastly different than what you have made before (probably the best proof you can get) or Marshall does an Exbeeriment and his group concludes overwhelmingly that the low-O2 beer is better (not as good because you have not tasted the experimental beers yourself but still good information).

 

generally I'd look for the experimental data first and see if people not so heavily vested have a similar experience.  then I'd give it a go and see if I think I can tell.  unless a change is easy I don't make it on a whim.

[denny]

the group was highly self selected and it's easy to get caught up in the moment.

 

eta:  I should say I suspect it was highly self selected based on what I know about the german brewing forum.

 

It's called confirmation bias.  Same way that kids presented with 2 identical hamburgers will almost always prefer the one in the McDonald's bag.

[HVB]

My guess is that proof will come to you one of two ways... you try it for yourself and see if the beer is vastly different than what you have made before (probably the best proof you can get) or Marshall does an Exbeeriment and his group concludes overwhelmingly that the low-O2 beer is better (not as good because you have not tasted the experimental beers yourself but still good information).

I guess I will never know because I am not going to boil my strike water and then cool it and mash in.  The time and extra energy and water that that takes is just not worth it to me, I like the beers I make just as much as I liked the beers I had in Germany.