239 replies to this topic

[MyaCullen]

the Aussie supplier I've bought from in the past is Craftbrewer

 

httpss://www.craftbrewer.com.au/shop/details.asp?PID=5922

[Big Nake]

Some interesting info showing up on the AHA forum....
 
"Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP"

"Addition of stabilisation products in the upstream brewing process is a very convenient way of physico-chemical stabilisation without the need for extra filtration or the risk of beer losses. Therefore, in this study the use of appropriate stabilisation products upstream the brewing process, more specifically at the end of wort boiling, have been evaluated in relation to improved colloidal stability. Applications of PVPP (Polyclar 10, ISP) and gallotannins (Beerotan Q, BFTI) have been investigated. The lowest gallotannin levels (wort boiling: 5 g/hL; contact time in boiling kettle: 3 minutes) are already sufficient to obtain enhanced stability due to adequate removal of haze- sensitive proteins. Furthermore, the addition of
10 g/hL PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols, which results in an improved colloidal stability. Lowering pH at mashing-in also results in improved physico-chemical properties and flavour stability."
 
with a pKa of 10, tannic acid is quite weak. For reference, lactic acid has a pKa of ~1 and citric acid has a pKa of 3.1. A low pKa represents a strong acid with the really strong acids actually having negative pKa values (nitric acid is pKa = -1.4, HCl pKa = -4.1). Remember that the 'p' scale, whether talking pKa, pKb or pH is logarithmic. That's an enormous difference between tannic vs common acids used to manipulate pH in brewing.

Engrish please. Is Beerotan Q a form of this Brewtan B we're talking about? So keeping O2 out -or- keeping the O2 from reacting with our wort/malt, etc., could both be viable solutions to oxidized beer and could allow for a smoother, more flavorful beer because the malt & hop character has not been scrubbed out by oxidation... Amirite? I think I'll order some of this stuff and see what happens.

[HVB]

Some interesting info showing up on the AHA forum....

 

"Upstream Beer Stabilisation during Wort Boiling by  Addition of Gallotannins and/or PVPP"

"Addition of stabilisation products in the upstream brewing process is a very convenient way of physico-chemical stabilisation without the need for extra filtration or the risk of beer losses. Therefore, in this study the use of appropriate stabilisation products upstream the brewing process, more specifically at the end of wort boiling, have been evaluated in relation to improved colloidal stability. Applications of PVPP (Polyclar 10, ISP) and gallotannins (Beerotan Q, BFTI) have been investigated. The lowest gallotannin levels (wort boiling: 5 g/hL; contact time in boiling kettle: 3 minutes) are already sufficient to obtain enhanced stability due to adequate removal of haze- sensitive proteins. Furthermore, the addition of
10 g/hL PVPP has an explicit effect on the amounts of polyphenols, which results in an improved colloidal stability. Lowering pH at mashing-in also results in improved physico-chemical properties and flavour stability."

 

with a pKa of 10, tannic acid is quite weak. For reference, lactic acid has a pKa of ~1 and citric acid has a pKa of 3.1. A low pKa represents a strong acid with the really strong acids actually having negative pKa values (nitric acid is pKa = -1.4, HCl pKa = -4.1). Remember that the 'p' scale, whether talking pKa, pKb or pH is logarithmic. That's an enormous difference between tannic vs common acids used to manipulate pH in brewing.

This makes me feel dumb

[neddles]

I tend not to let beer sit around too long. So the real question, for me, with this Brewtan B product seems to be if it will make a difference in flavor in the short term. It's reasonable to think that it could if it removes the proteins responsible for chill haze. What I don't know is if preventing oxidative reactions on the hot side will make a difference for a beer that I am only going to keep around for 3 months at most. I kinda hope it does, who wouldn't want even better beer. I may give it a shot.

[Big Nake]

I tend not to let beer sit around too long. So the real question, for me, with this Brewtan B product seems to be if it will make a difference in flavor in the short term. It's reasonable to think that it could if it removes the proteins responsible for chill haze. What I don't know is if preventing oxidative reactions on the hot side will make a difference for a beer that I am only going to keep around for 3 months at most. I kinda hope it does, who wouldn't want even better beer. I may give it a shot.

Exactly my position. Also, if the idea of oxidation means that your malt & hop character are not as smooth and clean as they should be... and this product will keep oxidation from occurring, I would like to experience that myself. Some of these people are saying that when you do these things, you get NO aroma from your mash because all of the malt character is staying in the mash (and hopefully in your beer) instead of being scrubbed out by O2. That's something I'd like to see and taste for myself. I actually just ordered some of this stuff from iBrew. I assume that there will be a domestic distributor at some point but I can't find one. I'm going to add some of this shizz to the mash water, I may rack from pot to MT, stir carefully, recirc quietly, add more of this shizz near the end of the boil, chill with my new SS chiller, carefully rack to primary, oxygenate, pitch, ferment and go straight to a keg.

[HVB]

I tend not to let beer sit around too long. So the real question, for me, with this Brewtan B product seems to be if it will make a difference in flavor in the short term. It's reasonable to think that it could if it removes the proteins responsible for chill haze. What I don't know is if preventing oxidative reactions on the hot side will make a difference for a beer that I am only going to keep around for 3 months at most. I kinda hope it does, who wouldn't want even better beer. I may give it a shot.

I was also wondering about short term advantages.  Most of my hoppy beers are kicked quickly but some, like the smokey brown I sent you, last a long time.

[Big Nake]

I was also wondering about short term advantages.  Most of my hoppy beers are kicked quickly but some, like the smokey brown I sent you, last a long time.

But it's also about keeping oxidation in the mash & boil to a minimum too... unless you guys are already trying to keep your O2 pickup low on brewday. I know that I have not done a good job with that.

[HVB]

But it's also about keeping oxidation in the mash & boil to a minimum too... unless you guys are already trying to keep your O2 pickup low on brewday. I know that I have not done a good job with that.

I am not making any process changes to my system.  If I can add something like brewtan and get some benefit I will do it but I like my beers and I like my system the way it is.

[neddles]

Also, if the idea of oxidation means that your malt & hop character are not as smooth and clean as they should be...

Yeah that's the idea. Do we really have anything objective (or subjective really) that tells us it will? Or is this still just an idea right now because we are assuming that all things oxidative must be bad.

[Big Nake]

Yeah that's the idea. Do we really have anything objective (or subjective really) that tells us it will? Or is this still just an idea right now because we are assuming that all things oxidative must be bad.

I don't know. I've mentioned before that I splash my way through most brewdays. I occasionally have batches of beer that are not as good as others. Most of my batches range from "good" to "very good" on my simple scale. But there are times when I will make a beer and there is something that is just not quite right. So I feel like I need to change some things already and the idea of brewing in shorter timeframes (quicker from grain to glass) is one of those as well as the other things I mentioned. If "blocking" O2 pickup sounds like a good idea (and many people seem to be leaning in that direction), I would like to at least try it.

[neddles]

 I would like to at least try it.

If it's as easy as throwing some shit in the mash and again in the kettle why not. I'm like Drez tho in that I am unlikely to change much if anything about my system. Probably won't change the occasional overnight mash either. 

[Big Nake]

If it's as easy as throwing some shit in the mash and again in the kettle why not. I'm like Drez tho in that I am unlikely to change much if anything about my system. Probably won't change the occasional overnight mash either.

I'm trying to change as little as possible because I'm stubborn and I generally like to get brewday moving and not spend additional time on it. When I first read all of this low-O2 stuff, I thought "No way I can do these things with my system... is there a shortcut?". So this is my shortcut. Also, remember that the GBF guys were looking for the elusive "German character" in their beer. Here, it's more about less oxidation and possibly better-tasting beer so we may not even be comparing apples to apples.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Looks like WYeast carries Brewtan B for commercial accounts. I bet some of you that are good friends with brewers that have accounts with them could get hold of some of this to do exbeeriments and distribute it.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Heck... my buddy owns a homebrew shop and has a Wyeast account. I'll check and see if he can buy it.

[MyaCullen]

Heck... my buddy owns a homebrew shop and has a Wyeast account. I'll check and see if he can buy it.

I'd be down to buy a 100 grams from ya

[Big Nake]

Heck... my buddy owns a homebrew shop and has a Wyeast account. I'll check and see if he can buy it.

Definitely let us know if that happens. It would be cool to get our hands on this stuff if it ends up being useful. I'm envisioning it either being something you wouldn't brew without or something along the lines of the 5.2 mash stuff... of which I still have a 95% full container.

[SchwanzBrewer]

They are going to try and order it. You only need 8gper barrel in the mash and 5g/barrel in the boil, So for homebrewer sizes 100g would go a LONG way. I'm going to see what  3lb will go for with shipping and then you guys can get some from me.

 

So if you want some, sign up here and if I need to I'll get the 10lb jar.

 

Anyone on the AHA forum that wants some too if you guys are talking over there.

[HVB]

They are going to try and order it. You only need 8gper barrel in the mash and 5g/barrel in the boil, So for homebrewer sizes 100g would go a LONG way. I'm going to see what 3lb will go for with shipping and then you guys can get some from me.

So if you want some, sign up here and if I need to I'll get the 10lb jar.

Anyone on the AHA forum that wants some too if you guys are talking over there.

If you do get some I would throw some $ in for some.

[Big Nake]

Denny mentioned 1/4 tsp in the mash and 1/2 tsp towards the end of the boil. Not sure how that equates to grams but it seems easy enough.

[MtnBrewer]

So if you want some, sign up here and if I need to I'll get the 10lb jar.

 

I'm in Schwanz.