66 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I have made 3 batches in the last 14 days. Exactly two weeks ago I made an Amarillo-Citra pale ale. On Friday I made a helles. Today I made another pale ale bittered with Nugget and then 2 ounces of Santiam and 2 ounces of Crystal added in the last 15 minutes. All of these were made with Brewtan. While I made the batch today, I took the Amarillo-Citra batch and racked it from primary directly to a purged keg instead of a secondary. I left the keg at room temp because I wanted to dry hop it. So I added an ounce each of Amarillo and Citra to a muslin bag and dropped it in there. I'll let that go for 5-7 days, retrieve the bag and then chill the keg, gel it and carb it. I know there has been some talk about gel stripping dry hops but without the benefit of secondary (for clarity) plus the dry hops, I need to take some step towards clear beer so I will try it this way. The helles I made on Friday went smoothly and it was made with the resurrected 2352. I tasted the wort going from kettle to primary and I was quite surprised at the flavor. It had a REALLY pronounced grain flavor (in a good way) and it was very different than what I would normally taste. This was the first batch I made with this Weyermann Barke Pils so not sure if it was that, the low(er) O2 or a combination of both. I plan to comment here on how these batches come out once I have sampled them. I notice that the Brewtan seems to temporarily change the color of the wort (it looks unusual while recircing and boiling... once I rack it to the primary, it looks totally normal) and the foam/break material has a strange color as I posted earlier. Cheers.

[neddles]

My current thinking on gelatin stripping hop flavor….  

 

If I dry hop a beer with yeast still in suspension it will remove hop flavor as it finishes flocking out. If I dry hop a protein haze that subsequently drops out it will take hop flavor with it. If I gelatin a beer I have dry hopped with yeast and/or insoluble protein in it, there will be a loss of hop flavor. Wether the gelatin itself strips the flavor or the yeast and/or protein dropping because of the gelatin does not matter, I lose hop flavor. I now prefer to add gelatin (or any clarifier) before dry hopping (if I add it at all) the idea being that dry hops are added to very clear beer which has nothing left to fall out and take hop flavor with it.

[Bklmt2000]

I agree with dry-hopping post-clarifying, whether the clarification is done with gel, Biofine or (in my case, at least) cold-crashing/lagering.

 

Much better hop character this way, and less dulling due to too much yeast in suspension.

 

And, when I've lost some hop character due to gel use, I just up the dry-hops a bit, and the resulting beer usually turns out well.

[Big Nake]

I find that if I put a beer in secondary (or dry hop a beer that sat in primary for 4+ weeks and is clear straight from primary) and then dry-hop it, it's hazy from the hop additions. So if I remove secondary from my process altogether (a place where my beers would really clarify well), I will need some other method of clarification and my first thought was to get the beer in the keg cold and then try to drop everything with a gel solution. I may throw my hands up at some point and go back to using a secondary and just purging it first with CO2. It's also possible hat the Brewtan would still be protecting the beer and O2 pickup would be minimal anyway. I don't really want to give up clarity if I can help it.

[neddles]

I don't really want to give up clarity if I can help it.

No surprise but I am the opposite. I like clarity but will sacrifice it for flavor if need be.  But really, IME if you clarify before dry hopping the dry hops don't add all that much haze. Unless of course I am making New England PA/IPA which is a different animal/process altogether.

Edited by neddles, 12 June 2016 - 07:31 PM.

[HVB]

Ken, do you cold crash your beers prior to transfering?

[Brauer]

Don't your beers just go clear after a week in the fridge without the gelatin? Mine always seem to.

[Big Nake]

Ken, do you cold crash your beers prior to transfering?

Cold crash the primary before sending to a keg? No. Lagers ferment in a fridge around 50 but then sit on the basement floor for a few days to clean up. Ales sit in a tub of water between 60 and 65 and then come out and sit on the basement floor for a few days. Everything used to go to secondary and clarify at room temp.
 

Don't your beers just go clear after a week in the fridge without the gelatin? Mine always seem to.

I think that what I'm seeing primarily is chill haze. A number of beers lately have been cloudy when cold but very clear as they warm up a bit. Does that suggest that I'm allowing too much schputz from the kettle into the primary? I typically get about 4 gallons of very clear wort going into the primary but then I start to pick up a lot of hop and break material. Maybe I need to try Chils' draflaussen thing so that all that stuff settles and then rack off of it. I generally do not just magically get clear beer after the beer sits cold.

[positiveContact]

I think that what I'm seeing primarily is chill haze. A number of beers lately have been cloudy when cold but very clear as they warm up a bit. Does that suggest that I'm allowing too much schputz from the kettle into the primary? I typically get about 4 gallons of very clear wort going into the primary but then I start to pick up a lot of hop and break material. Maybe I need to try Chils' draflaussen thing so that all that stuff settles and then rack off of it. I generally do not just magically get clear beer after the beer sits cold.

 

Nope.  In fact, if I remember correctly, allowing break material into the fermentor lead to clearer beer in the end.

[HVB]

Cold crash the primary before sending to a keg? No. Lagers ferment in a fridge around 50 but then sit on the basement floor for a few days to clean up. Ales sit in a tub of water between 60 and 65 and then come out and sit on the basement floor for a few days. Everything used to go to secondary and clarify at room temp.
 
 

 

Maybe you should try crashing an ale in your lager fridge for a day or two before moving.  It will allow a lot to settle and will make for a cleaner transfer.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I crash chill my beers in primary. If the keg is staying in my house, I'll gel it in the keg. If I know I'm taking the keg to an event then I'll gel the beer in primary after it's been crash chilled. And when a beer gets gelled in primary, I toss the yeast cake.

[HVB]

My hoppy beer process - I will crash the beer in the primary and then move the beer to a brite tank that has biofine and dry hops in it.  It sits in the BT for 4-6 days then gets moved to a serving keg.  I could skip the BT and just dh and biofine in the serving keg but I move kegs around and do not want to have the schmutz in the bottom stirred up.

[Big Nake]

I think I have access to everything that I need to be able to do things without a secondary but I guess the process change will take a little time to get used to. It's possible that I could leave beers in primary longer... I have left beers in primary for 4-5 weeks (not on purpose, life just got in the way) and they were VERY clear. Also, what does "chill haze" suggest if the beer is clearer as it warms? What can I do differently to avoid chill haze? I just know someone will say "serve the beer warmer" . I was under the impression that proteins were responsible for that and the less of them you get in the keg the better. Also, I admit that years ago I bought a plate filter system and never used it after reading MANY stories about what a PITA it is to use. ChadM tried it and said the beer was "clearish" but the process was really brutal plus you lose beer. Maybe there's a better, easier, quicker beer filter out now. LINK. My guess is that this filter would still be a PITA and it would probably take an hour to run 5 gallons through there. Plus... can one of those cartridges be sanitized?

[neddles]

I crash chill my beers in primary. If the keg is staying in my house, I'll gel it in the keg. If I know I'm taking the keg to an event then I'll gel the beer in primary after it's been crash chilled. And when a beer gets gelled in primary, I toss the yeast cake.

Are you letting the beer warm up again before gelling? If not how do you prevent a big suck of air into your primary when you go to add the gel?

I think I have access to everything that I need to be able to do things without a secondary but I guess the process change will take a little time to get used to. It's possible that I could leave beers in primary longer... I have left beers in primary for 4-5 weeks (not on purpose, life just got in the way) and they were VERY clear. Also, what does "chill haze" suggest if the beer is clearer as it warms? What can I do differently to avoid chill haze? I just know someone will say "serve the beer warmer" . I was under the impression that proteins were responsible for that and the less of them you get in the keg the better. Also, I admit that years ago I bought a plate filter system and never used it after reading MANY stories about what a PITA it is to use. ChadM tried it and said the beer was "clearish" but the process was really brutal plus you lose beer. Maybe there's a better, easier, quicker beer filter out now.

First of all serve the beer warmer.

 

Secondly I believe the primary claim to fame of Brewtan B is to remove proteins responsible for chill haze.

[positiveContact]

 Also, what does "chill haze" suggest if the beer is clearer as it warms? What can I do differently to avoid chill haze? I just know someone will say "serve the beer warmer" . I was under the impression that proteins were responsible for that and the less of them you get in the keg the better.

 

chill haze is proteins in suspension.  as the beer warms they go into solution so you don't see them.  this is why chilling the beer (and then gelling if you'd like to speed things along) before kegging helps.  you can't remove proteins in solution - they need to be in suspension first.

[neddles]

chill haze is proteins in suspension.  as the beer warms they go into solution so you don't see them.  this is why chilling the beer (and then gelling if you'd like to speed things along) before kegging helps.  you can't remove proteins in solution - they need to be in suspension first.

Yep, gelling warm beer takes care of yeast. Gelling cold beer gets yeast and insoluble protein (chill haze) as I understand it and have experienced it.

[positiveContact]

Yep, gelling warm beer takes care of yeast. Gelling cold beer gets yeast and insoluble protein (chill haze) as I understand it and have experienced it.

 

I sometimes don't go crazy cold on really hoppy beers.  I worry that I'm going to strip out the hop aroma.  on something non-hoppy though I get it down to 33-34F to get it to really clear up as much as possible.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I think I have access to everything that I need to be able to do things without a secondary but I guess the process change will take a little time to get used to. It's possible that I could leave beers in primary longer... I have left beers in primary for 4-5 weeks (not on purpose, life just got in the way) and they were VERY clear. Also, what does "chill haze" suggest if the beer is clearer as it warms? What can I do differently to avoid chill haze? I just know someone will say "serve the beer warmer" . I was under the impression that proteins were responsible for that and the less of them you get in the keg the better. Also, I admit that years ago I bought a plate filter system and never used it after reading MANY stories about what a PITA it is to use. ChadM tried it and said the beer was "clearish" but the process was really brutal plus you lose beer. Maybe there's a better, easier, quicker beer filter out now. LINK. My guess is that this filter would still be a PITA and it would probably take an hour to run 5 gallons through there. Plus... can one of those cartridges be sanitized?

To eliminate chill haze, you need to gel the beer colder than you serve it.

Are you letting the beer warm up again before gelling? If not how do you prevent a big suck of air into your primary when you go to add the gel?

When I crash chill, I use a solid bung, not an airlock.

[neddles]

When I crash chill, I use a solid bung, not an airlock.

Right, and if you open it while cold there will be a massive influx of air. So do you warm it back up to equalize the pressure before gel and/or transfer or how do you handle the potential O2 contact problem?

[HVB]

Right, and if you open it while cold there will be a massive influx of air. So do you warm it back up to equalize the pressure before gel and/or transfer or how do you handle the potential O2 contact problem?

Fermenter with a CO2 port solves this