61 replies to this topic

[Rattfink]

I didn't expect the bitterness to be different when choosing the other hops. I thought IBUs is IBUs. When the amarillo wasn't bitter enough I thought maybe they were too old and had lost potency. That's why I went to the fresher Simcoe. Had I expected a difference I could see confirmation bias being a factor but that wasn't the case.

Looking at an alpha acid/oil chart helped me understand more about how certain hops behave differently WRT mouthfeel, resin, and bitterness. Like how Spalt Select will give you PMF while other nobles won't. Check one out.

I understand the different acids contents in play. I want to see a blind tasting to demonstrate how perceptible it is to the human palate after being boiled for 60+ minutes. Until then, my own experience tells me to be skeptical of any such claims, even from you who I know to be an excellent and knowledgeable brewer. 

 

And I say hogwash on other nobles not giving good PMF. Saaz does it with aplomb. . 

[MyaCullen]

saaz certainky does make a great whirlpool hop

[MyaCullen]

IIRC Denny does a lot of blind triangle testing on the affects of different bittering levels and methods, even had some lab tests done.

[Steve Urquell]

I understand the different acids contents in play. I want to see a blind tasting to demonstrate how perceptible it is to the human palate after being boiled for 60+ minutes. Until then, my own experience tells me to be skeptical of any such claims, even from you who I know to be an excellent and knowledgeable brewer. 
 
And I say hogwash on other nobles not giving good PMF. Saaz does it with aplomb. .

Guess I should have said "some"other nobles. I got no PMF from Saphir even when mega dosed. You should do brew the batches to compare bittering hops. I'll donate some hops if you'd like.

[neddles]

Having used Chinook at 60 the way Denny likes I have to agree with him. It has a distinctive raspy bite to it that is very easy to pick out. I use it at 60 only occasionally when I want that bite in my IPA. It delivers and has a classic AIPA character to it.

[Rattfink]

Guess I should have said "some"other nobles. I got no PMF from Saphir even when mega dosed. You should do brew the batches to compare bittering hops. I'll donate some hops if you'd like.

I can't turn that down. I really don't drink enough IPAs to have ten gallons laying around and I'm flooring my house and have no time for brewing and I deploy in a few months but science demands it. 

But it will be challenging to create a blind for myself when I brew and bottle my own beer....

[Rattfink]

saaz certainky does make a great whirlpool hop

That it does!

And it appears the term PMF has become ubiquitous?

[shaggaroo]

That it does!
And it appears the term PMF has become ubiquitous?

not ubiquitous enough, wtf does PMF mean? I can't find it anywhere.

[Rattfink]

not ubiquitous enough, wtf does PMF mean? I can't find it anywhere.

okay...so once upon a time on the forum Homebrewchatter, someone started a thread about the resiny, "lipsmacking" mouthfeel you get from a redonkulous whirlpooled/ dryhopped American IPA. 

A mod changed the name of the thread from "Dat Resiny Mouthfeel" to "Dat Penisy mouthfeel." 

Or PMF...which became synonymous with whirlpool additions. 

Edited by Rattfink, 19 June 2016 - 07:55 PM.

[matt6150]

okay...so once upon a time on the forum Homebrewchatter, someone started a thread about the resiny, "lipsmacking" mouthfeel you get from a redonkulous whirlpooled/ dryhopped American IPA.
A mod changed the name of the thread from "Dat Resiny Mouthfeel" to "Dat Penisy mouthfeel."
Or PMF...which became synonymous with whirlpool additions.

Oooookay

[shaggaroo]

Oooookay

+1

And thank you ratt!

[Rattfink]

Oooookay

Whelp.....What can I say.

 

matt6150, on 19 Jun 2016 - 8:05 PM, said:

Oooookay

+1

And thank you ratt! 

 

YW

[Steve Urquell]

Schott's ExBeeriment. His impression on 2 beers brewed with Chinook or Simcoe 40IBUs.

My Impressions: First off, my bias– I was wholly convinced these beers would be indistinguishable based not only on stuff I’ve read and heard from trusted sources, but personal experiences following my presumption formed after the Red Ale story I told above. Man, was I wrong. In all of my 5 attempts, which I completed on different days with different people serving me and various levels of inebriation, I got it right. And I mean it when I say they smelled and tasted exactly the same, the only difference I picked up was in the harshness of the bitterness. Go ####ing figure. I feel like a schmuck even saying it. While pretty subtle, I found the Simcoe/low CoH beer to be characterized by a smoothness from start to finish while the Chinook/high CoH beer had more of a sharp, snappy bitter character that lingered on my palate a bit longer. It wasn’t a crazy difference, but I have no problems classifying it as noticeable.


As if that wasn’t enough, when comparing them in a “blind” side-by-side, I consistently preferred the Chinook/high CoH beer! For years, I’ve been using hops said to impart a smooth bitterness, chasing the preferences of those whose opinions I read and listened to, all the while ignoring my own desires.

https://brulosophy.c...riment-results/

[BarelyBrews]

I've found that you can detect the flavor from bittering hops, depending on the variety.  There's also the quality of the bitterness to consider...Magnum has a very "soft" bitterness that IMO is fine for some styles, but for things like IPA I prefer a hop like Chinook that has more "bite".

 

I need to try my chinook hops again, i over did them one time last year. I used to love that hop, then i went bitter,flavor(x2)and flameout and huge DH and hated it for a while.. 

[denny]

I need to try my chinook hops again, i over did them one time last year. I used to love that hop, then i went bitter,flavor(x2)and flameout and huge DH and hated it for a while.. 

 

I've even gotten into using Chinook for flameout and DH additions.  Wonderful hop.

[HVB]

I've even gotten into using Chinook for flameout and DH additions.  Wonderful hop.

Love chinook!

 

I need to try my chinook hops again, i over did them one time last year. I used to love that hop, then i went bitter,flavor(x2)and flameout and huge DH and hated it for a while.. 

 

shameless plug https://www.brews-br...ookcitrasimcoe/

[neddles]

I've even gotten into using Chinook for flameout and DH additions.  Wonderful hop.

Absolutely, that is where it really shines. It's a great hop, really versatile.

 

Surly did an excellent pale ale they were serving in house that was bittered with something else and then was all chinook late and dry. It was fantastic all by itself.

[Rattfink]

Schott's ExBeeriment. His impression on 2 beers brewed with Chinook or Simcoe 40IBUs.

My Impressions: First off, my bias– ..... my own desires.

https://brulosophy.c...riment-results/

 

 

Well...I am very rusty on my statistics but I understand 12/23 tasters picking out the low CoH beer is statistically significant. But not Earth shattering. Especially when the author also wrote this:

 

"....later studies performed by our friends at Oregon State University demonstrated experienced tasters were unable to distinguish between beers containing differing CoH levels to a significant degree. "

 

And there is a strong flaw in his experiment, another variable he did not address-he used two different hops-how do we know the 12/23 tasters got it right for that reason? They said harshness in the bitterness but that is a term so vague and unquantifiable it will mean something different to everyone. (Assuming the survey wasn't leading in any way). 

 

At the end of the day brewing is science but it is at least equal parts art. If a bittering hop tastes "harsh" or "Smooth" to you...then by all means use what you want based on your perception.

 

But I stand by my advice-if OP uses 15 IBUs of any damn hop in his heffe he will be just fine and will be hard pressed to find a substantial difference. In fact I give him a 12 in 23 chances of picking out the difference in a blind tasting

Edited by Rattfink, 20 June 2016 - 04:33 PM.

[shaggaroo]

Those are House odds... slow but sure lol. I ended up going more traditional with Perle.

[Rattfink]

Those are House odds... slow but sure lol. I ended up going more traditional with Perle.

Perle is an excellent choice for this beer IMO. I like it, a nice versatile hop.