517 replies to this topic

[denny]

That's good to know. I have no idea if brewtan is doing something for the head formation and stability or not. The head on the brewtan helles I made was also very fine and long-lasting. The S-189 pils is not quite as fine and thick which is strange because that's the one that had some carapils and carafoam in it. I'm also noticing that my most recent beers have been very clear but I also gelled them after they were cold in the keg. Is the brewtan adding to that clarity? Not sure.

 

The answer may be in here....https://byo.com/stor...foam-techniques

[Big Nake]

The answer may be in here....https://byo.com/stor...foam-techniques

Mmm, that was interesting. Thanks for that link.

I know I have already described what's happening with these brewtan beers and I've credited it with everything from smoother beer to more lustrous hair and clearer skin but... I feel like it's also doing something to lighten the color of the beer. I have my Bordertown Dark Lager on tap right now and I have made this beer many times and it's lighter than usual. The pilser I made is also super, super pale... one of the lightest-colored beers I have made. All of that could be my imagination.

[denny]

I now have 3 Brewtan beers on tap and I haven't noticed a color difference.

Edited by denny, 13 July 2016 - 07:43 AM.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Do they taste less oxygeny?

[Big Nake]

Do they taste less oxygeny?

For sure!

I've been interested in "beer smoothness" and a smooth finish for a very long time. I remember asking about this when I joined my first forum (The Brewhut) a long time ago. So the smooth, soft character I'm getting is really exciting for me personally, especially since I make a lot of German-inspired lagers. I still don't know where oxidation comes into play here nor do I know if my pre-brewtan beers were oxidized. But as Chils mentioned, something is different and it's a positive for me.

[EnkAMania]

I just ordered some of this magic elixir, can't wait to try it

[neddles]

I just ordered some of this magic elixir, can't wait to try it

 

Report back with what you find.

[Steve Urquell]

First pull off my Hoppy German Pils with brewtan is interesting. I gelled it to speed up the lagering process so it wouldn't be too far from the other non-brewtan version.

It's very clear. The harshness the other version has isn't present. Smooth mouthfeel. Hop character(aroma/flavor) pleasantly present. The oddest thing is that the Carared is giving it prominent flavor and long lasting candied sweetness on the back of the palate. I usually only get this flavor from darker caramunich in greater quantities. I have not ever had this much flavor added from carared.

I'll get some direct comparisons between these 2 beers over the weekend.

Edited by chils, 27 July 2016 - 05:18 PM.

[Big Nake]

First pull off my Hoppy German Pils with brewtan is interesting. I gelled it to speed up the lagering process so it wouldn't be too far from the other non-brewtan version.

It's very clear. The harshness the other version has isn't present. Smooth mouthfeel. Hop character(aroma/flavor) pleasantly present. The oddest thing is that the Carared is giving it prominent flavor and long lasting candied sweetness on the back of the palate. I usually only get this flavor from darker caramunich in greater quantities. I have not ever had this much flavor added from carared.

I'll get some direct comparisons between these 2 beers over the weekend.

Not that you should take it as gospel but the GBF guys said that crystal malts seem to *POP* more when used in a low-O2 process. I actually experienced the same thing on a batch I had on tap when I had family over a couple of weeks ago... first taste had that candy-finish but as the batch went on that character faded and disappeared. Tonight I made my 9th brewtan batch... a helles and I'm using S-189 in it. I'm also sampling a blonde ale that just finished carbing... first glass was ruddy with yeast (dumped it) and the second glass was super clear (I gelled it after the beer was cold in the keg). I have not tasted a bad brewtan beer yet.

Also... when you say "the harshness the other version has isn't present"... are you saying that you now see something in your pre-brewtan beers that was harsh or was it just an occasional thing? I have mentioned an occasional rough finish in some of my beers and brewtan has ironed out those wrinkles nicely.

[Steve Urquell]

Yeah Ken I read their observations on crystal. Good to hear the crystal flavors dissipate. I'm 15mins post 12oz glass and still have the sweetness in my mouth. Way out of character for this recipe.

I kegged this batch saturday with it at 35F and gelled it. Pulled 2oz of crud tonite and dumped it. Next 12ozs were crystal clear. 1/2 tsp Knox gel.

I dont usually have harshness that doesnt age out but my non-brewtan batch is harsh. First time I've used S-189 in that recipe plus I didn't use any floor malt so the base was less malty. Also new CTZ hops. I figured all those things added up to the harshness but wasn't sure about the yeast. The Brewtan batch doesnt have the harshness. Only difference is fresher dry hops. All other ingredients except Brewtan are from the same bags. Harvested S-189 as was the other batch.

[Big Nake]

Yeah Ken I read their observations on crystal. Good to hear the crystal flavors dissipate. I'm 15mins post 12oz glass and still have the sweetness in my mouth. Way out of character for this recipe.

I kegged this batch saturday with it at 35F and gelled it. Pulled 2oz of crud tonite and dumped it. Next 12ozs were crystal clear. 1/2 tsp Knox gel.

I dont usually have harshness that doesnt age out but my non-brewtan batch is harsh. First time I've used S-189 in that recipe plus I didn't use any floor malt so the base was less malty. Also new CTZ hops. I figured all those things added up to the harshness but wasn't sure about the yeast. The Brewtan batch doesnt have the harshness. Only difference is fresher dry hops. All other ingredients except Brewtan are from the same bags. Harvested S-189 as was the other batch.

Interesting. I feel like once all of the areas that brewtan impacts are clear we'll all get a better feel for what to expect. Do you envision any recipe changes based on what you're seeing with the brewtan? Would you do anything with the hop schedule, the water composition, etc? I'm getting such amazing smoothness and softness with the brewtan which may require more hops and possibly additional sulfate to create some crispness on future batches. I also see distilled water being scratched from my brewing now that brewtan has created this smoothness.

[Steve Urquell]

I'll have to wait a little longer for this beer to age before deciding on any changes but I can see how it might need more hops and sulfate or less crystal. Amazing such a small amt of product can change the beer so much.

[HVB]

Ken - how many of the 9 batches have you tried and are you seeing differences?  If this is in here let me know and I will go back, I have read all of this thread.  My 1 Brewtan batch is good but being very hoppy I am not noticing any huge changes.  The next batch will be a lower hopped lager and I hope to notice differences in there more easily.

[Big Nake]

Ken - how many of the 9 batches have you tried and are you seeing differences?  If this is in here let me know and I will go back, I have read all of this thread.  My 1 Brewtan batch is good but being very hoppy I am not noticing any huge changes.  The next batch will be a lower hopped lager and I hope to notice differences in there more easily.

I have tried 7 of the 9... the latest being last night when I sampled a blonde ale. There is a pale ale and a helles in primary now which are batches 8 and 9. On hoppier batches, the late hops seem to shine a little more and they are 'clearer-tasting' with the brewtan. The brewtan seems to bring out a softness and smoothness that seems to suggest that more hops and/or sulfate should be used in the beer and that actually falls right in line if you consider how wimpy my recipes have been in the past and how reluctant I have been to use more sulfate. I have always been attempting to make my beers smoother and now that brewtan is doing that, I see more hops and sulfate in upcoming beers. Also, when I went to this LHBS the other day I was reunited with a buddy of mine who has worked at various LHBS in the area and he is a homebrewer and has also been a commercial brewer at a few places. I asked him about brewtan and he had never heard of it. He asked me what it was and I told him that it was "a tannic acid product" and I mentioned that it was supposed to help with oxidation. We talked further about pouring, splashing, stirring, etc. and he said, "Yes, you need to be careful not to introduce oxygen at various points along the way, not just after fermentation is complete" which compounded the idea that some brewers will not see brewtan do much because they're already using a process that keeps O2 at a minimum while others may see a wild improvement in their beers because they splash and stir their way through their brewday. My next beer will be another pale ale and I plan to up the hops and sulfate in that one. I also plan to use some amount of MO or GP so that it has a big malty character with some big, bold crispness from the hops and sulfate. I'm glad that Denny and Chils are seeing the difference that brewtan makes... it's remarkable.

[EnkAMania]

Received my in the mail yesterday, won't be able to brew until August 7.  I'm making a pineapple wheat which is the same as my watermelon wheat I have kegged.  Could be fun to compare the two.

[Steve Urquell]

So, I came home from work and pulled 2 6oz tasters of the brewan and non-brewtan pils. Marked "B" on the brewtan one and did the closed eyes shell game with the glasses.

 

I could not reliably discern the difference between the two beers. When I was sure I was tasting the carared richness in the BT batch--it was the non-BT batch. The harshness I thought my non-BT batch had was not tastable between the two.

 

Crazy right? The BT batch is clearer than the other due to it being gelled. The non-BT batch is 3mths old at this point.  I would have thought I would be able to tell a difference in the two from hop character alone and also the BT batch is green as hell with only being carbed for ~5 days. Speechless.

[Big Nake]

So, I came home from work and pulled 2 6oz tasters of the brewan and non-brewtan pils. Marked "B" on the brewtan one and did the closed eyes shell game with the glasses.
 
I could not reliably discern the difference between the two beers. When I was sure I was tasting the carared richness in the BT batch--it was the non-BT batch. The harshness I thought my non-BT batch had was not tastable between the two.
 
Crazy right? The BT batch is clearer than the other due to it being gelled. The non-BT batch is 3mths old at this point.  I would have thought I would be able to tell a difference in the two from hop character alone and also the BT batch is green as hell with only being carbed for ~5 days. Speechless.

Yes, very weird. Do you think that the 3-month old version has smoothed out and cleaned up over time? I don't really have any beers where one batch is brewtan and one is not so I can't conduct that same experiment. In fact, the only non-brewtan batch I have is the half (or so) keg of pale bock I brought over to Dave McG's house for the gathering. I guess I could make another helles with S-189 when this current (brewtan) version is done fermenting and not use the brewtan and then try to compare them as you did. Interesting since you said earlier, "this stuff is definitely doing something in the beer".

[Steve Urquell]

I don't know what to say other than confirmation bias is a bee-yotch but I'm honest enough to admit it. The GBF guys need to take a step back and do some blind triangle testing. I think they are tasting a whole lotta want it to be so's.

[Big Nake]

I don't know what to say other than confirmation bias is a bee-yotch but I'm honest enough to admit it. The GBF guys need to take a step back and do some blind triangle testing. I think they are tasting a whole lotta want it to be so's.

Chils... do you feel like your process is such that you don't introduce a lot of O2 in the first place? I'm wondering if your process is such that there is nothing (or very little) for brewtan to correct. I know that Denny mentioned that he pours, stirs, splashes, etc. so maybe brewtan will make a bigger difference for some than for others. If what I'm experiencing is confirmation bias, it's very powerful stuff because I'm noticing a lot of new things. It should be noted that I also modified my mash and sparge volumes, got the SS chiller, started conditioning my malt and started using the brewtan all at the same time... could be something there. But I still pour my strike and sparge water, stir well, recirc into a glass measuring cup, run off, stir while I chill and siphon through a strainer on the way to primary.

[denny]

I don't know what to say other than confirmation bias is a bee-yotch but I'm honest enough to admit it. The GBF guys need to take a step back and do some blind triangle testing. I think they are tasting a whole lotta want it to be so's.

 

That's been my issue with them all along.  They refuse to admit confirmation bias might be at work, and they also refuse to do blind triangles.

 

I've been on the road doing book signings, seminars and podcast interviews the last couple weeks, but I plan to get back to brewing and testing next week.

Edited by denny, 29 July 2016 - 08:48 AM.