14 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

CWG: Since we use the same water and you occasionally make batches of helles, what do you do with the water? Anyone else who makes helles can answer this if you know the water numbers for the batch. I'm looking to retool the recipe a bit because these brewtan batches are so soft and smooth I'm considering changing the water up a little bit. I'm also digging this Weyermann Barke pils to the point that I think I could make a helles with 100% pils malt as the style guideline calls for. Until now I've been adding 12 ounces each of Vienna and Munich to give it some depth. Cheers.

[positiveContact]

is this a munich helles or a regular helles?

 

I'm usually going to be shooting for munich helles.  here are my numbers from bru'n water:

 

Ca: 51

Mg: 3

Na:  29

SO4: 76

Cl: 59

Bicarb: -66

 

I used some lactic acid (hence the negative Bicarb).  pH was 5.3.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 04 July 2016 - 09:41 AM.

[HVB]

Ca-68
SO4-76
Cl-64

For mine.

My 30 minute Helles recipe is posted in the 30 minute thread, last page.

Edited by drez77, 04 July 2016 - 10:16 AM.

[Big Nake]

I guess I'm calling it a Munich Helles and I'm not sure I have heard of another kind unless it's just the same style but with wide guidelines for hops, grains, etc. So I used to get quite a bit of crispness in my helles (pre-brewtan) so I used NO gypsum in my helles and added 3g of calcium chloride which would put my chloride up around 60-70ppm and my sulfate left alone at 27ppm. This USED to be a good balance for whatever the reason. The one brewtan helles I have on tap right now was 25% distilled plus the 3g of calcium chloride plus brewtan so it's really, really soft. Like too soft. So I think I'll make the next one with a more balanced water composition and see what happens. This brewtan odyssey has taken me down a twisting path for sure.

[neddles]

I guess I'm calling it a Munich Helles and I'm not sure I have heard of another kind unless it's just the same style but with wide guidelines for hops, grains, etc. So I used to get quite a bit of crispness in my helles (pre-brewtan) so I used NO gypsum in my helles and added 3g of calcium chloride which would put my chloride up around 60-70ppm and my sulfate left alone at 27ppm. This USED to be a good balance for whatever the reason. The one brewtan helles I have on tap right now was 25% distilled plus the 3g of calcium chloride plus brewtan so it's really, really soft. Like too soft. So I think I'll make the next one with a more balanced water composition and see what happens. This brewtan odyssey has taken me down a twisting path for sure.

Ken, was using WY2124 an important part of that crisp character? IIRC this one you have on now was made with WY2352, no?

[Big Nake]

Ken, was using WY2124 an important part of that crisp character? IIRC this one you have on now was made with WY2352, no?

2124 is usually mentioned as producing "a malty beer" so I don't think so. I could see a yeast allowing some crispness to come through (830, 2278 come to mind) but 2124 and 2352 are actually quite similar.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

Chicago tap plus 7 grams calcium chloride and 5 grams gypsum. Also 5 ml of lactic for pH.

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

With EZ Water that puts me at:

Ca 133
Mg 13
Na 10
Cl 121
SO4 114

[ChicagoWaterGuy]

I use 100% Prostejov Pilsner Malt for my Helles.

[neddles]

2124 is usually mentioned as producing "a malty beer" so I don't think so. I could see a yeast allowing some crispness to come through (830, 2278 come to mind) but 2124 and 2352 are actually quite similar.

Well, you have a lot more experience with these yeasts than I do, that's for sure. From my limited use I have found 2352 to be more malt forward and less crisp than 2124. Wyeast also mentions the crisp finish on the 2124 in their description but it could be that I am just too suggestible.

 

 

 

This Carlsberg type yeast is the most widely used lager strain in the world. This strain produces a distinct malty profile with some ester character and a crisp finish. A versatile strain, that is great to use with lagers or Pilsners for fermentations in the 45-55°F (8-12°C) range.

Edited by neddles, 05 July 2016 - 08:17 PM.

[Brauer]

Well, you have a lot more experience with these yeasts than I do, that's for sure. From my limited use I have found 2352 to be more malt forward and less crisp than 2124. Wyeast also mentions the crisp finish on the 2124 in their description but it could be that I am just too suggestible.

I consider crispness a defining character of 2124, too. I still haven't used the Augustine's yeast, but their beers are very malty, so that yeast seems a good choice for a Munich Helles. I'd probably stick with 2124 if I was going to go for an Export Helles.

[positiveContact]

I guess I'm calling it a Munich Helles and I'm not sure I have heard of another kind unless it's just the same style but with wide guidelines for hops, grains, etc. So I used to get quite a bit of crispness in my helles (pre-brewtan) so I used NO gypsum in my helles and added 3g of calcium chloride which would put my chloride up around 60-70ppm and my sulfate left alone at 27ppm. This USED to be a good balance for whatever the reason. The one brewtan helles I have on tap right now was 25% distilled plus the 3g of calcium chloride plus brewtan so it's really, really soft. Like too soft. So I think I'll make the next one with a more balanced water composition and see what happens. This brewtan odyssey has taken me down a twisting path for sure.

 

for some reason I was thinking munich helles was a subtype of helles.  not sure why.

[Big Nake]

Thanks for the responses guys. I've been travelling and not watching this but I plan to make a helles sometime soon and it looks like I will be adjusting the sulfate level not only on that style but many (possibly all) styles. I can't explain what I'm seeing here but the brewtan beers have such a soft character that it looks like I will be increasing the amount of gypsum I use. The hoppier ones are nice but could still use a dash of sulfate. Can any of you chemist types explain what I'm seeing? Do I have more of a certain metal in my water than most people where I would see this? Could I have more of a metal in my water that would have given my pre-brewtan beers a sharp, harsh flavor? Since CWG and I use the same water (that would go for a number of others here too including Dave McG), my guess is NO since they don't encounter this.

[positiveContact]

Thanks for the responses guys. I've been travelling and not watching this but I plan to make a helles sometime soon and it looks like I will be adjusting the sulfate level not only on that style but many (possibly all) styles. I can't explain what I'm seeing here but the brewtan beers have such a soft character that it looks like I will be increasing the amount of gypsum I use. The hoppier ones are nice but could still use a dash of sulfate. Can any of you chemist types explain what I'm seeing? Do I have more of a certain metal in my water than most people where I would see this? Could I have more of a metal in my water that would have given my pre-brewtan beers a sharp, harsh flavor? Since CWG and I use the same water (that would go for a number of others here too including Dave McG), my guess is NO since they don't encounter this.

 

does brewtan make your lagers seem more czech in nature?  those always seemed kind of soft/delicate to me.

[Big Nake]

I guess you could say that as long as "soft" = "Czech" which I would agree with. These beers are super-super soft. Again, the hoppy ones are better because there is more bite there but they could use more crispness. Somehow brewtan has made my beers really, really soft on the palate which is not a bad thing because I can adjust for that. I was just surprised by it.