16 replies to this topic

[porter]

I did a split batch of a wheat beer last weekend. Half was done as a wit, the other one pitched with saison yeast (Belle Saison) in hopes of adding some fruit later to make something of interest. 

 

The wit half is tasting good 8 days later. The "saison" half, well, it is interesting. I've never used this yeast before, and haven't used any saison yeast in seven or eight years, truth told. It's certainly not as spicy and saison-y as I would have guessed, though the temperatures may be partially to blame (started fermentation at 70 F, let it slowly rise on its own to a peak of 78-79 at 3-4 days). 

 

The weird thing is that it's quite tart. Not sour, but tart. Obviously, could be infection, but it doesn't taste off in any other regard, and I haven't had a contaminated batch in the last dozen or so batches I've made since my brewing hiatus, which could be evidence of good sanitation, or evidence that I'm due for an infection.

 

Anyone ever get this from this yeast? Is it perhaps an early characteristic that subsides? I added 4 lbs. of pureed mango today, so I actually wouldn't mind if the tartness hung around at the current levels, though much more would be out of place.  

 

ETA: Whoops, this was meant to go in the general beer forum; please move if you get a chance.

Edited by porter, 25 July 2016 - 05:41 PM.

[MtnBrewer]

I've never used that yeast but some tartness certainly is a characteristic of many saisons. I doubt it's a contamination unless there are other signs that also point to that.

[porter]

Yeah, this is considerably more than I usually detect in commercial saisons. It's not quite unpleasant, but I hope it recedes rather than advances.

[positiveContact]

I don't think I've noticed a lot of tartness with that yeast.  I've also never used it in a beer with any wheat so maybe there could be an interaction going on there?

[dmtaylor]

I don't notice tartness with that yeast.  That said, I also don't notice tartness with Notty.  Perhaps I need to do more side-by-side tasting experiments.

[Poptop]

I use Belle frequently and I believe you're taste buds are in fact picking up some tart as I get that too. I pitch in the high 60's and let it rise from there ~ 75'ish. To me, it is very different from any other Saison yeast such as 565 or 3711 etc. Belle 'belongs' in a recipe I make about 3 times per year that my wife loves and it has a bit of munich, Special B and 120 in it which sweetens or perhaps offsets the tartness a bit.

[positiveContact]

I use Belle frequently and I believe you're taste buds are in fact picking up some tart as I get that too. I pitch in the high 60's and let it rise from there ~ 75'ish. To me, it is very different from any other Saison yeast such as 565 or 3711 etc. Belle 'belongs' in a recipe I make about 3 times per year that my wife loves and it has a bit of munich, Special B and 120 in it which sweetens or perhaps offsets the tartness a bit.

 

good point there.  the 2 times I've used it had recipes that could have masked tartness.  one has high gravity, the other  involved pale ale malt.

[porter]

From what I'm hearing, probably more likely infection, as what I'm getting sounds a bit more prominent. Could be the wheat, though, we'll see.

[Poptop]

From what I'm hearing, probably more likely infection, as what I'm getting sounds a bit more prominent. Could be the wheat, though, we'll see.

Well infection-wise, I hope you're wrong.

[neddles]

Split batch of wort, right? So same grist from the same mash? How did you acidify that light colored grist? Did you measure pH at any point in the process. It would be interesting to see finished pHs after the fermentation with those two yeasts. Either way I wonder if Belle has dried the beer out so much that you are uncovering a little underlying tartness in the wort. Did you check FGs?

 

One other thought is that you may just be tasting the yeast itself? Belle being such a low flocculator there has to be a lot in suspension at just 8 days.

Edited by neddles, 26 July 2016 - 06:45 AM.

[armagh]

I agree that eight days is a bit short for Belle Saison (from which I've never gotten tartness).  Could the astringency of the wheat be playing a part in perceived tartness?

[MyaCullen]

I agree that eight days is a bit short for Belle Saison (from which I've never gotten tartness).  Could the astringency of the wheat be playing a part in perceived tartness?

maybe dissolved C02 as well

[porter]

Split batch of wort, right? So same grist from the same mash? How did you acidify that light colored grist? Did you measure pH at any point in the process. It would be interesting to see finished pHs after the fermentation with those two yeasts. Either way I wonder if Belle has dried the beer out so much that you are uncovering a little underlying tartness in the wort. Did you check FGs?

 

One other thought is that you may just be tasting the yeast itself? Belle being such a low flocculator there has to be a lot in suspension at just 8 days.

 

No pHs. Even though I'm a scientist by training and at heart, haven't implemented that as part of my brewing process, yet. 

[neddles]

No pHs. Even though I'm a scientist by training and at heart, haven't implemented that as part of my brewing process, yet. 

Got it. If you decide to go that direction speak up, this place certainly helped me along.

[porter]

Got it. If you decide to go that direction speak up, this place certainly helped me along.

 

Oh, I will, it's just always about prioritizing my next improvement. I probably have a couple of other improvements ahead of that. 

[neddles]

A data point.

 

A saison I made a while ago (w/3711, rumored to be the liquid equiv. of Belle) finally just got tapped. There is a bit of tartness to it, no doubt. Not sour no, just a touch tart. It is bone ass dry. Went from 1.051--->1.000 (mashed at 150F and 6oz crystal in the grist too)

[MtnBrewer]

The dryness is going to emphasize the tartness too. Or more correctly, residual sweetness would tend to hide the tartness.