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Spin-off of Doobah's thread: Mash temps, body, dry finish, etc...


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#1 Big Nake

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 08:47 AM

We all have different systems and different tastebuds so we all do different things to get the beer we want. Lately I have been mashing on the low side because I don't like beer that finishes sweet or beer that doesn't have a dry, crisp finish. There are probably a lot of ways to adjust this but I have been mashing between 149.5° (ish) and maybe 151° (Denny has mentioned that a range that narrow makes no difference) and if I want to adjust the profile of the beer (crisper, drier, maltier, more depth) I do that with the grain bill (more munich, vienna or crystal for a beer with more depth or less of those for a crisper beer) or even change the water composition (more chloride in a malty beer, more sulfate in a crisper beer) and leave the mash temp alone. The yeast can have an impact as well. I seem to always be looking for ways to create fewer variables since brewing is full of them. I seem to be encountering a lot of commercial beers that seem to be too sweet or just clumsy-tasting to me and I seem to be able to control that best by mashing on the low side. Thoughts?

#2 denny

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:15 AM

I used to try to do that, but I've found that recipe and water treatment work way better for me.  Balancing hops against grist bill takes care of sweetness, careful selection of grist and adjuncts takes care of body and water additions take care of a dry finish.  While I still use varying mash temps, I really question how much that's doing.  I was in a FB discussion about this with Malcolm Frazer....he mentioned that he'd talked to breweries that were upset that the malt was so "hot" these days that they had little control over the mash.  That may be the case, but my own research leads me to think that 's what commercial brewers want....a malt that converts so easily reduces their labor and energy costs and allows them to produce beer more quickly and inexpensively.



#3 neddles

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:22 AM

I used to try to do that, but I've found that recipe and water treatment work way better for me.  Balancing hops against grist bill takes care of sweetness, careful selection of grist and adjuncts takes care of body and water additions take care of a dry finish.  While I still use varying mash temps, I really question how much that's doing.  I was in a FB discussion about this with Malcolm Frazer....he mentioned that he'd talked to breweries that were upset that the malt was so "hot" these days that they had little control over the mash.  That may be the case, but my own research leads me to think that 's what commercial brewers want....a malt that converts so easily reduces their labor and energy costs and allows them to produce beer more quickly and inexpensively.

Almost as if American 2-row was selected for the benefit BMC type breweries and their beers. Would also explain why I find it to be the most flavorless of barley base malts. Which isn't always a bad thing. 



#4 denny

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 10:59 AM

Almost as if American 2-row was selected for the benefit BMC type breweries and their beers. Would also explain why I find it to be the most flavorless of barley base malts. Which isn't always a bad thing. 

 

I think you're thinking too narrow.  Most craft breweries like it for the same reason the megas do.



#5 Big Nake

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 11:38 AM

I like using standard domestic 2-row in some cases where I want a simpler beer. I might mix it with pale ale malt, GP or MO or even Vienna or Munich for a deeper character. I have tried making something like a blonde ale with Rahr Pale Ale malt and the character was a little too full for that style, IMO. I always seem to push for cleaner beers: mash lower, possibly longer, leave the beer in primary longer to lower gravity, etc. but there is a narrow kill zone... too much of that and you have too dry of a beer and not enough of that and you possibly have a sweet or heavy-finishing beer.

#6 neddles

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 11:41 AM

I think you're thinking too narrow.  Most craft breweries like it for the same reason the megas do.

Narrow? No. I wasn't trying to make any kind of statement about "craft" brewers or their motives. I'll see if I can explain better what I am saying. Of course craft brewers like it for the same reasons. I like it for some of those same reasons. However, I'd be willing to bet that the most widely grown cultivars of US 2-row were developed with the market demands of the dominant US breweries in mind.  



#7 denny

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 11:51 AM

Narrow? No. I wasn't trying to make any kind of statement about "craft" brewers or their motives. I'll see if I can explain better what I am saying. Of course craft brewers like it for the same reasons. I like it for some of those same reasons. However, I'd be willing to bet that the most widely grown cultivars of US 2-row were developed with the market demands of the dominant US breweries in mind.  

 

Agreed, and that's pretty much true of almost everything in the brewing world.



#8 positiveContact

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 12:11 PM

I think it has an affect at my house but I haven't fully tested it out.  it's hard to untangle all of the variables.  often I'm using multiple methods to get where I'm going so it's not clear which of them is doing most of the work.



#9 Big Nake

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 01:29 PM

I assume that we all go through it: Design a recipe, brew it, ferment it and eventually sample it and say, "Hmm, I should have done [this or that]" and eventually you find yourself moving in [this or that] direction and that becomes what you want to do to get your desired results. I may still adjust a beer here or there after fermentation is done (add chloride or sulfate, dry hop it because it lacks hop character, etc) but I try to get all those things squared away on brewday. Sometimes the variables overwhelm me and sometimes I'm a victim of something I didn't know... like this or that malt is really malty or really lacks character and I'm using it for the first time, etc.

#10 Brauer

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Posted 12 August 2016 - 03:43 PM

Balancing hops against grist bill takes care of sweetness...

There seems to be a lot of breweries that think that bitterness somehow cancels out sweetness. Instead of balancing the grist bill, they throw more hops in and make a beer that is both too sweet and too bitter. Seems particularly to be a problem with IPAs, but luckily the rise of the NEIPAs seems to be pushing things toward drier and less bitter, allowing hop flavor to be the focus.

#11 Big Nake

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Posted 13 August 2016 - 10:11 AM

There seems to be a lot of breweries that think that bitterness somehow cancels out sweetness. Instead of balancing the grist bill, they throw more hops in and make a beer that is both too sweet and too bitter. Seems particularly to be a problem with IPAs, but luckily the rise of the NEIPAs seems to be pushing things toward drier and less bitter, allowing hop flavor to be the focus.

I'm noticing that exact thing... big, sweet beers that are super bitter and super hopped-up flavor and aroma-wise. This results in a beer that you really can't drink much of without killing your tastebuds.


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