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Mash temp and attenuation


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#1 Genesee Ted

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 07:03 AM

In another thread someone mentioned the debunking of the idea that mash temperature impacts final gravity. Does anyone have a link to this study?

#2 Big Nake

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 07:29 AM

Hopefully Denny will pop his head in here. He mentioned mashing the same beer at 152 and 168 and having them both come out the same which blows my mind.

#3 neddles

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 07:39 AM

Hopefully Denny will pop his head in here. He mentioned mashing the same beer at 152 and 168 and having them both come out the same which blows my mind.

They were both very low gravity beers and mashed with very hot 2-Row. I don't know for sure but it seems like both of those things would contribute to the result he noticed.



#4 Big Nake

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 08:52 AM

They were both very low gravity beers and mashed with very hot 2-Row. I don't know for sure but it seems like both of those things would contribute to the result he noticed.

I could see that but it debunks a lot of things I learned when I was a new brewer... which I should probably be used to by now. :P My thinking would be that a beer mashed at 168 would be sweeter and have more body than the beer mashed lower. If our base malts are indeed that well modified then mash temps could be something that people could pay less attention to.

#5 denny

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 09:11 AM

It's not a study, it's an observation.  I used Great Western Munich 10 and Rahr 2 row pale as base malts.  One batch mashed at 153 and the other at 168.  Identical measurements and flavor.  I think this is more likely to be true when using domestic malts as opposed to continental, but there needs to be more work done to be certain.



#6 Genesee Ted

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 10:20 AM

I would love to see it proven through the scientific method. Like so much anecdotal brewing "knowledge", I have a hard time accepting it without hard data. Not that I don't believe it, I just think it would make for a great study.

#7 neddles

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 10:58 AM

I would love to see it proven through the scientific method. Like so much anecdotal brewing "knowledge", I have a hard time accepting it without hard data. Not that I don't believe it, I just think it would make for a great study.

Me too but there would be so many things to control for the study would have to be very involved and extensive to prove anything definitive. 



#8 denny

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 11:06 AM

I would love to see it proven through the scientific method. Like so much anecdotal brewing "knowledge", I have a hard time accepting it without hard data. Not that I don't believe it, I just think it would make for a great study.

 

Then try it for yourself.  That's how I find things out!



#9 Genesee Ted

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 11:36 AM

I'm not set up for that kind of thing. You need a law to be that precise. My buddy is the brewmaster at Genessee tho. I will mention it to him. They have that kind of setup.

#10 denny

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 01:00 PM

I'm not set up for that kind of thing. You need a law to be that precise. My buddy is the brewmaster at Genessee tho. I will mention it to him. They have that kind of setup.

 

a law?

 

I mean, how difficult could it be?  Just mash the same grist at 2 different temps.


Edited by denny, 17 August 2016 - 01:01 PM.


#11 MyaCullen

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 04:19 PM

I'm thinking there is some autocorrect feckery going on here Denny.

#12 djinkc

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 04:44 PM

Is the DP of American malts so high now that beta amylase wins most of the time?  I've been mashing low for years now since my preference is for a drier final product.  If I use specialty malts at all it's a tiny bit of crystal, Special B, melanoidin/aromatic, or more likely, Special Roast.



#13 Genesee Ted

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Posted 17 August 2016 - 06:56 PM

a law?

I mean, how difficult could it be? Just mash the same grist at 2 different temps.

Lab... Dunno what that autocorrect was about.

Is the DP of American malts so high now that beta amylase wins most of the time? I've been mashing low for years now since my preference is for a drier final product. If I use specialty malts at all it's a tiny bit of crystal, Special B, melanoidin/aromatic, or more likely, Special Roast.

Great question

#14 Brauer

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 04:18 AM

I have a lab, but I'm not sure what I would use it for, for this experiment.

a law?

I mean, how difficult could it be? Just mash the same grist at 2 different temps.

Seems straight-forward to me, too. All you should need is a good understanding of your tun, so you hit your temperatures, a decent, calibrated thermometer, and a calibrated hydrometer. An FG hydrometer would be helpful.

I don't think that mash temperature's affect on FG has been debunked at all, though. Some experiments that have tested this have been confounded by temperature loss, during the mash, or higher extraction efficiency at higher temperatures, but they usually show a >10% drop in fermentability of base malt between a primarily beta or primarily beta mash. This could easily be the difference between a beer finishing at 1.008 or >1.012.

Brülosophy measured 87.5% attenuation after a 148°F mash and 65% at 161°F. People were not able to taste the difference, though, so the idea that a high temp mash produces a sweet wort may have been debunked.

Edited by Brauer, 18 August 2016 - 04:20 AM.


#15 positiveContact

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 04:48 AM

Brülosophy measured 87.5% attenuation after a 148°F mash and 65% at 161°F. People were not able to taste the difference, though, so the idea that a high temp mash produces a sweet wort may have been debunked.

 

the fact that people couldn't taste a difference with those two FGs was pretty surprising to me.  any idea what gives there?



#16 Brauer

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 05:00 AM

the fact that people couldn't taste a difference with those two FGs was pretty surprising to me. any idea what gives there?

I guess FG alone isn't enough to make a change in the body great enough to detect. Not what I would have expected.

#17 neddles

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 05:11 AM

I would bet that both FG and the perceivable differences are highly grist dependent. So an asterisk may need to go by any blanket statements about FG/fermentability, sweetness or other perceivable differences. But that's just my conjecture.



#18 denny

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 08:14 AM

Is the DP of American malts so high now that beta amylase wins most of the time?  I've been mashing low for years now since my preference is for a drier final product.  If I use specialty malts at all it's a tiny bit of crystal, Special B, melanoidin/aromatic, or more likely, Special Roast.

 

That has been my experience.


Brülosophy measured 87.5% attenuation after a 148°F mash and 65% at 161°F. People were not able to taste the difference, though, so the idea that a high temp mash produces a sweet wort may have been debunked.

 

Keep in mind that's only a single data point.


I would bet that both FG and the perceivable differences are highly grist dependent. So an asterisk may need to go by any blanket statements about FG/fermentability, sweetness or other perceivable differences. But that's just my conjecture.

 

Again, this has been what I've found.



#19 Brauer

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 05:21 PM

Keep in mind that's only a single data point.

It does seem to be somewhat in line with my casual observations. Perhaps the 1.005 seems a bit lower than I would expect, but I don't use the Ballantine yeast very often.

#20 johnpreuss

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Posted 18 August 2016 - 08:34 PM

I can say from personal experience and looking over my notes... I have mashed anywhere between 148 and 156 using the same grist of Rahr 2 row, Rahr Pale Ale Malt, Briess 2 row and Cargill 2 row with a OG of 1.048 and I end up at 1.010 consistantly using S05, 1272 and W34/70.  Most of the data comes from Rahr 2 row but I have used multiple sacks of each grain and my mash temps aren't always where I want them... Then only time I noticed anything dramatic was mashing at 145-146 or above 156.  Then I get it to attenuate more or less depending on the temp. 




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