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I may be done dry-hopping...


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#41 BlKtRe

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:33 PM

What kind of phenols did you get?

 

I always called the green grassy flavors as phenols. Could be the wrong descriptor but I've heard others as describing it the same. 


I don't think I could achieve the desired level of hop aroma any other way.  you have my sympathies!

 

I can come close with my method described earlier. 



#42 neddles

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 12:56 PM

I always called the green grassy flavors as phenols. Could be the wrong descriptor but I've heard others as describing it the same.

I've known them as polyphenols. Could be wrong tho.

#43 positiveContact

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 01:08 PM

I can come close with my method described earlier. 

 

I'm guessing at my place that too much aroma is lost during fermentation which is why I need my dry hops :chug:



#44 BlKtRe

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 02:42 PM

I'm guessing at my place that too much aroma is lost during fermentation which is why I need my dry hops :chug:

 

Use more late......



#45 matt6150

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 04:44 PM

Just sampled a IPA after fermentation and dry-hop #1 of Jade, Gem and Topaz. Pretty dang good! These hops are definitely worthy of dry-hopping with. I added DH #2 and will give it about 4 days before cold crash.

#46 Brauer

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 06:05 PM

I've known them as polyphenols. Could be wrong tho.

More bad tannins.

#47 positiveContact

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 06:52 PM

Use more late......

 

I could if I wanted more of late and WP bring to the table but really I want that dry hopped character.  there is a reason pretty much every commercial IPA produced is dry hopped.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 23 August 2016 - 06:54 PM.


#48 neddles

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Posted 23 August 2016 - 07:35 PM

More bad tannins.

I know your thoughts about tannins and agree in most circumstances. A tannic presence in a my glass of lager or many other styles would be (has been) a deal breaker.  I have to say though that with the citrusy, fruity, tropical flavors, and at times a sweetness that comes from using many of the in vogue hops for PA/IPA the drying/tannic presentation is not entirely unwelcome to my palate. However I don't think they should turn your mouth to cotton or come across harsh (entirely subjective, I know). In fact IMO some tannic presence is a significant contributor to the "juicy" in the NEIPA. Thoughts?

 

Also, there has to have been dry hopped beer you enjoyed…. or maybe not?  The worst of the polyphenols introduced by the dry hop seem to drop out fairly quickly or, in some circumstances, bond with protein in the beer to make, wait for it….

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

haze.



#49 Brauer

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:30 AM

I know your thoughts about tannins and agree in most circumstances. A tannic presence in a my glass of lager or many other styles would be (has been) a deal breaker. I have to say though that with the citrusy, fruity, tropical flavors, and at times a sweetness that comes from using many of the in vogue hops for PA/IPA the drying/tannic presentation is not entirely unwelcome to my palate. However I don't think they should turn your mouth to cotton or come across harsh (entirely subjective, I know). In fact IMO some tannic presence is a significant contributor to the "juicy" in the NEIPA. Thoughts?

Also, there has to have been dry hopped beer you enjoyed…. or maybe not? The worst of the polyphenols introduced by the dry hop seem to drop out fairly quickly or, in some circumstances, bond with protein in the beer to make, wait for it….











haze.

Sorry to be unclear. I like dry hopped beers. The bad I was referring to was the tannic grassiness. Sometimes I suspect that a particular IPA with an overly tannic finish, might have picked it up during the dry hopping. But, yeah, I figure that hoppy beers that are hazy are that way because of polyphenols/tannins, but some of them are delicious.

#50 BlKtRe

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:39 AM

I could if I wanted more of late and WP bring to the table but really I want that dry hopped character.  there is a reason pretty much every commercial IPA produced is dry hopped.

 

I can get close to the same aroma using other techniques without getting those nasty flavors Ken and Brauer are talking about.  


Edited by BlKtRe, 24 August 2016 - 07:40 AM.


#51 positiveContact

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 07:55 AM

I can get close to the same aroma using other techniques without getting those nasty flavors Ken and Brauer are talking about.  

 

I don't get any nasty flavors though.  I've also made some beers with lots of late hops and tasted them dry hopped and not dry hopped.  the dry hopped versions taste better to me.

 

eta:  and no offense to ken but this might just be a hop he doesn't like to dry hop with.  or maybe he's not big on the flavor from dry hopping in general which is fine.  everyone is allowed to like different stuff.

 

eta2:  another aspect is hop aroma longevity.  dry hop aroma seems to last and last for me.  late hop aroma seems to fade substantially in the first few weeks in the keg.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 24 August 2016 - 08:04 AM.


#52 BlKtRe

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 08:37 AM

I don't get any nasty flavors though.  I've also made some beers with lots of late hops and tasted them dry hopped and not dry hopped.  the dry hopped versions taste better to me.

 

eta:  and no offense to ken but this might just be a hop he doesn't like to dry hop with.  or maybe he's not big on the flavor from dry hopping in general which is fine.  everyone is allowed to like different stuff.

 

eta2:  another aspect is hop aroma longevity.  dry hop aroma seems to last and last for me.  late hop aroma seems to fade substantially in the first few weeks in the keg.

 

As said earlier I think Im overly sensitive to it. Which is why I haven't had a session IpA yet that isn't much more than a green grass hop tea. IpA is my favorite style by far and I drink and make lots of it. I might add another technique I do is put the hop rocket in between two kegs. Doing this I get some benefits without the polyphenols. Im not sure about hop aroma longevity without dry hopping lasting only a week. I get way longer than that.

 

I do 10g batches and when I get half way through the second keg I do notice the aroma siips. Im not saying dry hopping doesnt work just not for me.

 

I also think that commercial IpA that is dry hopped has got some weeks of age on it before it gets to my fridge aiding in these phenols to dissipate. No science behind that just an assumption. 



#53 HVB

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:16 AM

I also think that commercial IpA that is dry hopped has got some weeks of age on it before it gets to my fridge aiding in these phenols to dissipate. No science behind that just an assumption. 

 Dayum!! Weeks of age, throw them out.  Anything over 24 hours in the package is too old :)

 

:troll:



#54 positiveContact

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:30 AM

As said earlier I think Im overly sensitive to it. Which is why I haven't had a session IpA yet that isn't much more than a green grass hop tea. IpA is my favorite style by far and I drink and make lots of it. I might add another technique I do is put the hop rocket in between two kegs. Doing this I get some benefits without the polyphenols. Im not sure about hop aroma longevity without dry hopping lasting only a week. I get way longer than that.

 

I do 10g batches and when I get half way through the second keg I do notice the aroma siips. Im not saying dry hopping doesnt work just not for me.

 

I also think that commercial IpA that is dry hopped has got some weeks of age on it before it gets to my fridge aiding in these phenols to dissipate. No science behind that just an assumption. 

 

I wonder if there is something about your water, final pH or something else unknown that causes this.  have you had other people try your dry hopped beers to see if they feel the same way?

 

I'm just throwing out ideas here.  It could be like you said that age helps but wouldn't you have noticed that in your beers?  I assume you didn't just immediately dump them.


Edited by Evil_Morty, 24 August 2016 - 10:44 AM.


#55 BlKtRe

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 10:58 AM

Good question. Yes others who use the same water have tried the beers. It was hit and miss with them. I never immediately dumped them but what I have noticed the hop flavor subsides to much for me to enjoy the IpA as intended. Remember tho I have the same issue with session IpA. Maybe I should go back and visit ph after fermentation. Everybody really likes my non dry hopped IpA just fine.  



#56 positiveContact

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 11:26 AM

Good question. Yes others who use the same water have tried the beers. It was hit and miss with them. I never immediately dumped them but what I have noticed the hop flavor subsides to much for me to enjoy the IpA as intended. Remember tho I have the same issue with session IpA. Maybe I should go back and visit ph after fermentation. Everybody really likes my non dry hopped IpA just fine.  

 

it just makes me wonder what's going on since you seem to like commercial IPAs that are dry hopped.  what are they doing differently that makes you like them?  have you tried a lot of other homebrewer's beer that is dry hopped?  same issues for your taste buds?



#57 BlKtRe

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 01:11 PM

it just makes me wonder what's going on since you seem to like commercial IPAs that are dry hopped.  what are they doing differently that makes you like them?  have you tried a lot of other homebrewer's beer that is dry hopped?  same issues for your taste buds?

 

All this been gone thru my head for years. Maybe Im not doing it right.



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Posted 24 August 2016 - 01:21 PM

All this been gone thru my head for years. Maybe Im not doing it right.

 

have you shared your dry hopping methods/process with the group at all?  maybe there is something in there someone will see as a potential source of what you don't like.



#59 Big Nake

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 04:33 PM

Do you dry hop cold? :o

#60 positiveContact

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Posted 24 August 2016 - 05:07 PM

Do you dry hop cold? :o

 

I do usually.




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