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Let's have a conversation about "bad hops"...


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#1 Big Nake

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 07:00 PM

Not "unpopular" hops but hops that you order or buy on a regular basis and that are ordinarily good although sometimes they're not. I noticed in another thread that Brauer had some bad Amarillo. I haven't had bad Amarillo but I have had bad Hallertau, Tettnanger and EKG and I also used Saphir [apparently] in a way that I shouldn't have (dry hopped... grassy) and I also learned that Styrian Gold is not the same as Styrian Golding (thanks to neddles, I believe). That right there is intentional misleading hop naming and nothing more. :D So I ask about this because I wonder about suppliers, their stock, homebrewers getting whatever hops are leftover after craft breweries take the rest and how we protect against it. For me it's very hard to open a bag of hops, take a sniff and predict how they will be in the beer. I might smell "great hops" and I might smell "something off" but the beer comes out fine. Sometimes everything smells okay but the beer does not come out fine. Also, I order and buy a lot of 1-ounce bags of hops and also 4-oz bags of hops. In every case I can remember, the hops that were bad came out of an unopened bag of hops so it wasn't like the hops were in an opened bag and sat in the freezer for 6 months before I used them. I only use pellets. Thoughts?

#2 djinkc

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 07:35 PM

I ragged about Amarillos a while back.  I had several pounds at the time.  Guess it was a bad pound bag I had.  The ones used since then have been great.

 

Pellets are all I've used for years.  Honestly a lot of stuff still smells weird to me making beer until it's ready to drink.  I think my nose is still recovering from not smoking.



#3 Steve Urquell

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Posted 25 August 2016 - 09:17 PM

I got Some lame Saphir pellets from Farmhouse awhile back. No character at all. Also got in on some of the bad Amarillo pellets several years back.

I've found that the beer I make with whole hops tastes better to me. Not starting any kind of whole vs pellet battle but that has been my experience and I have switched to all cone. I mash them out after the boil so I don't lose any beer to their greedy asses. I never was able to get my Czech beers to taste right using pellets so I switched and was very pleased with the results. YMMV according to the quality of pellets.



#4 HVB

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 05:23 AM

I have had some bad hops, mainly Amarillo but a few others.  I think if stored properly there should be no issue with time.  When I had the bad Amarillo I happened to have 3#'s from different years.  Smelling them all side by side it was easy to pick out the bad batch.  Recently I had a beer that was fine out of primary but tastes awful after the dry hop.  I think it is from the Columbus I used that was from a brand new # and smelled great. 



#5 neddles

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:23 AM

I still have an unopened pound of 2013 Amarillo for fear it will be crappy like so many others. :covreyes:



#6 HVB

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:25 AM

I still have an unopened pound of 2013 Amarillo for fear it will be crappy like so many others. :covreyes:

yuuuuup!



#7 Big Nake

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:25 AM

So in the interest of saving one from potentially using bad hops in the future and possibly saving a batch of beer, does anyone have any hard and fast rules for determining if hops are bad before you throw them into the boil? Appearance doesn't seem to matter... some pale and not-so-vibrant green pellets have been just fine. I've heard of people seeing hops that are almost yellow but I have not seen that. Aroma is also VERY hard to use as a signal because [as I mentioned], I have smelled strange hops that made great beer and perfectly-fine-smelling hops that made poor beer. When I made this German Pale Ale yesterday, the Perle hops were so unbelievably dark green and vibrant that when I threw them in the wort, it was like the fluorescent-green relish that goes on a Chicago hot dog. But honestly... they didn't smell all that great which is why I started this thread in the first place.

#8 Bklmt2000

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:30 AM

I've not had many issues w/ bad hops, but I've had several batches where the hop character seemed different enough for me notice something wasn't quite right.

 

Ultimately, it's a crap shoot.



#9 neddles

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:47 AM

So in the interest of saving one from potentially using bad hops in the future and possibly saving a batch of beer, does anyone have any hard and fast rules for determining if hops are bad before you throw them into the boil? Appearance doesn't seem to matter... some pale and not-so-vibrant green pellets have been just fine. I've heard of people seeing hops that are almost yellow but I have not seen that. Aroma is also VERY hard to use as a signal because [as I mentioned], I have smelled strange hops that made great beer and perfectly-fine-smelling hops that made poor beer. When I made this German Pale Ale yesterday, the Perle hops were so unbelievably dark green and vibrant that when I threw them in the wort, it was like the fluorescent-green relish that goes on a Chicago hot dog. But honestly... they didn't smell all that great which is why I started this thread in the first place.

My understanding is that the yellow comes from the lupulin which is where the majority of the oils are contained. Every bag of Galaxy I have opened has been really yellow and sticky. (and delicious) Others have been similar, including Equinox. I have come to know this as a good sign in the hops I have used. I used some Azacca that were very deep dark green and they weren't bad but seemed to give very little contribution to the beer.

 

ETA: Denny is the hops school guy so I am hoping he will have some input on this.


Edited by neddles, 26 August 2016 - 06:48 AM.


#10 Steve Urquell

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:48 AM

I mortar and pestle crush a few pellets and smell them. Any cheesy gym sockiness results in them going in the trash. Lame duck ones as well. I think some of those pellets are being pushed thru dies that aren't cooled and it kills delicate nobles.

#11 HVB

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:53 AM

 

Ultimately, it's a crap shoot.

 

I think that is true

 

 

 I think some of those pellets are being pushed thru dies that aren't cooled and it kills delicate nobles.

 

I think this is true as well.



#12 Big Nake

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 06:59 AM

I mortar and pestle crush a few pellets and smell them. Any cheesy gym sockiness results in them going in the trash. Lame duck ones as well. I think some of those pellets are being pushed thru dies that aren't cooled and it kills delicate nobles.

Mmm, I think you've mentioned crushing some pellets in the past and I should really start doing that. So if I took some pellets (let's say... NUGGET) and crushed them and took a big whiff... what should I look for? The stinky gym sock thing is clear... I've smelled that. What else? Just anything that sticks out as "not good"?

#13 Steve Urquell

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 09:55 AM

Mmm, I think you've mentioned crushing some pellets in the past and I should really start doing that. So if I took some pellets (let's say... NUGGET) and crushed them and took a big whiff... what should I look for? The stinky gym sock thing is clear... I've smelled that. What else? Just anything that sticks out as "not good"?


Yeah. If I smell something I wouldn't want in my beer I punt. I made a hop tea with a little Summit years ago and it smelled and tasted exactly like it did in the beer after the dry hop--like a sweaty hippie's armpit.

Edited by chils, 26 August 2016 - 09:56 AM.


#14 Big Nake

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 10:18 AM

Yeah. If I smell something I wouldn't want in my beer I punt. I made a hop tea with a little Summit years ago and it smelled and tasted exactly like it did in the beer after the dry hop--like a sweaty hippie's armpit.

Shh. Denny is a member here, you know? :lol:

I have some Summit that went unused because of comments just like this. Wasn't Summit described as onion/garlic, etc? No, thank you. <_<

#15 HVB

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 10:19 AM

Shh. Denny is a member here, you know? :lol:

I have some Summit that went unused because of comments just like this. Wasn't Summit described as onion/garlic, etc? No, thank you. <_<

If summit was what chils described it as for me I would be all over it.  Sounds like Citra.  I got onion,garlic and green pepper from summit... blech.



#16 Steve Urquell

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 10:27 AM

My summit wasn't onion garlic. It was straight up sweaty BO or billygoat.

Ken I think those Saphir from FH were too weak to dry hop with. Gimme a few minutes and I'll go get some out and smash them up. I bet they didn't have enough aroma and flavor to give anything but vegetable matter to the beer.

#17 Steve Urquell

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 10:39 AM

First smell after cutting the bag open was grass. Crushing them gave off a nice spicy and fruity aroma which faded fast until it took getting my nose right in the mortar to get the aroma. The wife typically hates the smell of hops and she had her nose right in the mortar.

Just a little too mild for a dry hop perhaps?

#18 Big Nake

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 11:03 AM

First smell after cutting the bag open was grass. Crushing them gave off a nice spicy and fruity aroma which faded fast until it took getting my nose right in the mortar to get the aroma. The wife typically hates the smell of hops and she had her nose right in the mortar.

Just a little too mild for a dry hop perhaps?

Good to know... thanks for checking. What I did this morning was take that Saphir-dry-hopped blonde ale and put it back into my on-deck fridge and I put an "American Lager" (pils, flaked corn, carapils, Hallertau, S-189) in its place for now. If given enough time, maybe the grass notes will fade to a point where it will be a bit better... maybe it will clarify a little bit too. From now on I'll either punch up the late hops in a beer like this (hoppy blonde) or I'll dry hop with something I'm more familiar with (Crystal, Liberty, Mt. Hood, Ultra, Santiam, Glacier, etc). Cheers.

#19 denny

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 11:40 AM

Shh. Denny is a member here, you know? :lol:

I have some Summit that went unused because of comments just like this. Wasn't Summit described as onion/garlic, etc? No, thank you. <_<

 

 OK, look...Summit can be and is a great hop.  I love to use it.  ANY hop can develop that onion/garlic thing if it's harvested too late, although some varieties are more prone to it than others.  And while we're busing myths, homebrewers do NOT necessarily get the leftover hops.  At harvest time, buyers from the bog wholesalers (Brewcraft, BSG, etc.) are right there bidding on lots along with the commercial brewers.  Geez, some of you guys oughta go to Hop School!



#20 neddles

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Posted 26 August 2016 - 11:44 AM

I have an idea Ken. Hit that Saphir beer with a dose of gelatin and answer a long open question for yourself while potentially improving a less than stellar beer.




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