Jump to content


Photo
- - - - -

Glass carboy nuclear option sanitation


  • Please log in to reply
25 replies to this topic

#1 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 10 September 2016 - 02:57 PM

I went to keg a saison last night that does not taste good at all. No brettyness or funk, no acid/vinegar. Weird initial sweetness and a metallic note, just weird. I'm not convinced it's infected but can't rule it out either. In light of that, what is the best way to completely wipe this 6.5 gallon glass carboy of all possible life? I am thinking bleach? How much? How long a soak? Something else?



#2 djinkc

djinkc

    Comptroller of Non-Defending Defenders of Inarticulate Twats

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 32138 posts
  • Locationout the backdoor

Posted 10 September 2016 - 03:27 PM

From How to Brew -  "The cheapest and most readily available sanitizing solution is made by adding 1 tablespoon of bleach to 1 gallon of water (4 ml per liter). Let the items soak for 20 minutes, and then drain. Rinsing is supposedly not necessary at this concentration, but many brewers, myself included, rinse with some boiled water anyway to be sure of no off-flavors from the chlorine."

 

 

If I convinced myself to use bleach again I would use more and go longer.  Then rinse and use a bisulfite to nuke the chlorine.



#3 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 10 September 2016 - 03:59 PM

From How to Brew -  "The cheapest and most readily available sanitizing solution is made by adding 1 tablespoon of bleach to 1 gallon of water (4 ml per liter). Let the items soak for 20 minutes, and then drain. Rinsing is supposedly not necessary at this concentration, but many brewers, myself included, rinse with some boiled water anyway to be sure of no off-flavors from the chlorine."

 

 

If I convinced myself to use bleach again I would use more and go longer.  Then rinse and use a bisulfite to nuke the chlorine.

Thanks for that. I was thinking I would use more than 6.5T and water as hot as I can get it. Soak over night. Then rinse about 5 times, minimum. 



#4 djinkc

djinkc

    Comptroller of Non-Defending Defenders of Inarticulate Twats

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 32138 posts
  • Locationout the backdoor

Posted 10 September 2016 - 04:12 PM

Thanks for that. I was thinking I would use more than 6.5T and water as hot as I can get it. Soak over night. Then rinse about 5 times, minimum. 

 

I wouldn't use hot water in a carboy.



#5 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 10 September 2016 - 04:14 PM

I wouldn't use hot water in a carboy.

Maybe we have 2 different ideas of hot? I'm talking hot from the tap which is like 125F here. I've been cleaning glass with that water for several years, no bueno?



#6 djinkc

djinkc

    Comptroller of Non-Defending Defenders of Inarticulate Twats

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 32138 posts
  • Locationout the backdoor

Posted 10 September 2016 - 04:32 PM

Maybe we have 2 different ideas of hot? I'm talking hot from the tap which is like 125F here. I've been cleaning glass with that water for several years, no bueno?

 

I don't think temperature will make that much difference if you're soaking overnight.  Thermal shock and broken carboys - why tempt fate.

 

Campden tablets are great for nuking the chlorine.  I've reclaimed a few that held chlorine for the pool with them.



#7 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 10 September 2016 - 04:35 PM

I don't think temperature will make that much difference if you're soaking overnight.  Thermal shock and broken carboys - why tempt fate.

 

Campden tablets are great for nuking the chlorine.  I've reclaimed a few that held chlorine for the pool with them.

Alright thanks. I'll check to see if I have some campden in the supplies.



#8 Brauer

Brauer

    Frequent Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1857 posts
  • Location1 mile north of Boston

Posted 10 September 2016 - 07:09 PM

Bleach is about the best thing for really wiping out contamination.

1:10 bleach for >10 minutes is what the CDC recommends to kill everything. That's what I have always used when I've worked with dangerous organisms. That is essentially sterilizing, if you want to make sure you blast it.

If all you want to do is kill yeast, 1:100 bleach for 1 hour will do the job.

I'm talking about disinfection, which should wipe everything out, not sanitation, which can still leave some surviving cells.

#9 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 10 September 2016 - 07:51 PM

Bleach is about the best thing for really wiping out contamination.

1:10 bleach for >10 minutes is what the CDC recommends to kill everything. That's what I have always used when I've worked with dangerous organisms. That is essentially sterilizing, if you want to make sure you blast it.

If all you want to do is kill yeast, 1:100 bleach for 1 hour will do the job.

I'm talking about disinfection, which should wipe everything out, not sanitation, which can still leave some surviving cells.

Yeah thanks Brauer, I'm looking to disinfect here, no survivors. For a year or so I have been using bleach after every 4-5 beers in these 2 carboys I have. I don't usually measure it but just pour in a little (1/4c-ish) and let it sit for 24 hrs or so. Subsequent beers have all been good, but they weren't around long. The yeast came from a starter I split between 2 batches and the other was a terrific beer. The beer is clear with no pellicle, nothing funny at all except that weird initial sweetness and metallic flavor. This is nothing I have tasted before. So I am not taking any chances. One other possibility, I suppose, could be autolysis. However the beer sat in primary just over a month. Seems like I have done that many times without issue so I really don't know about that.



#10 Brauer

Brauer

    Frequent Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 1857 posts
  • Location1 mile north of Boston

Posted 11 September 2016 - 06:02 AM

Yeah thanks Brauer, I'm looking to disinfect here, no survivors. For a year or so I have been using bleach after every 4-5 beers in these 2 carboys I have. I don't usually measure it but just pour in a little (1/4c-ish) and let it sit for 24 hrs or so. Subsequent beers have all been good, but they weren't around long. The yeast came from a starter I split between 2 batches and the other was a terrific beer. The beer is clear with no pellicle, nothing funny at all except that weird initial sweetness and metallic flavor. This is nothing I have tasted before. So I am not taking any chances. One other possibility, I suppose, could be autolysis. However the beer sat in primary just over a month. Seems like I have done that many times without issue so I really don't know about that.

One thing nice about glass is you can disinfect it effectively with something as cheap and available as bleach. Less bleach, or random concentrations can work, but the ones I cited are shown to be completely effective.

It doesn't sound pleasant. Wild yeast can make some unpleasant phenols. Those might seem metalic at the right (wrong?) concentration or mix. You'll be more than usally susceptible to autolysis if the beer gats warm. Was it sitting at ambiant during our particularly hot Summer?

#11 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 11 September 2016 - 06:29 AM

One thing nice about glass is you can disinfect it effectively with something as cheap and available as bleach. Less bleach, or random concentrations can work, but the ones I cited are shown to be completely effective.

It doesn't sound pleasant. Wild yeast can make some unpleasant phenols. Those might seem metalic at the right (wrong?) concentration or mix. You'll be more than usally susceptible to autolysis if the beer gats warm. Was it sitting at ambiant during our particularly hot Summer?

The beer was sitting at ambient for most of that time. Probably around 70F+/- up until the last several days when it was crashed cold.



#12 denny

denny

    Living Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9090 posts
  • LocationEugene OR

Posted 11 September 2016 - 09:10 AM

I went to keg a saison last night that does not taste good at all. No brettyness or funk, no acid/vinegar. Weird initial sweetness and a metallic note, just weird. I'm not convinced it's infected but can't rule it out either. In light of that, what is the best way to completely wipe this 6.5 gallon glass carboy of all possible life? I am thinking bleach? How much? How long a soak? Something else?

 

.sounds like oxidation, not infection


I wouldn't use hot water in a carboy.

 

THIS^^^^^


Maybe we have 2 different ideas of hot? I'm talking hot from the tap which is like 125F here. I've been cleaning glass with that water for several years, no bueno?

 

Nope, no bueno.  Maybe your carboys are different, but every one of mine has raised lettering on the bottom warning against using hot water.  IMO, 125F is hot.



#13 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 11 September 2016 - 11:23 AM

.sounds like oxidation, not infection

Any thing is possible I suppose. This one wasn't treated any different than the rest of my beers though.

 

Maybe your carboys are different, but every one of mine has raised lettering on the bottom warning against using hot water.  IMO, 125F is hot.

Your right, mine does not say that.



#14 MyaCullen

MyaCullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68748 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 11 September 2016 - 11:58 AM

taste it again cold and carbed, never trust your taste buds on a tepid flat beer, ever



#15 denny

denny

    Living Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9090 posts
  • LocationEugene OR

Posted 11 September 2016 - 12:00 PM

Any thing is possible I suppose. This one wasn't treated any different than the rest of my beers though.

 

Your right, mine does not say that.

 

I realize that a lot of them don't. I don't think that means it's OK to use hot water, though.  I certainly wouldn't risk it.



#16 MyaCullen

MyaCullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68748 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 11 September 2016 - 12:03 PM

I realize that a lot of them don't. I don't think that means it's OK to use hot water, though.  I certainly wouldn't risk it.

I dunno, I've used hot tap water soaks for 14 years in mine, about 120 ish, with no ill effects,  and yes I've read the articles about it. 



#17 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 11 September 2016 - 12:06 PM

taste it again cold and carbed, never trust your taste buds on a tepid flat beer, ever

I get that. I taste all my beers at several stages in the process. Never have I tasted this. (not even in the infected beers I guy I know regularly makes)



#18 neddles

neddles

    No Life

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 16519 posts

Posted 11 September 2016 - 12:13 PM

I realize that a lot of them don't. I don't think that means it's OK to use hot water, though.  I certainly wouldn't risk it.

I get the logic but like Mic I've done 4+ years of the same process and no issues. I have mine on a rubber mat next to a floor drain. I fill with a coiled hose from my sink, add cleaner and let sit for several hours/overnight until cool. Then siphon out the cleaner into the drain. IOW I don't handle them at all when hot.



#19 denny

denny

    Living Legend

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 9090 posts
  • LocationEugene OR

Posted 11 September 2016 - 12:58 PM

I get the logic but like Mic I've done 4+ years of the same process and no issues. I have mine on a rubber mat next to a floor drain. I fill with a coiled hose from my sink, add cleaner and let sit for several hours/overnight until cool. Then siphon out the cleaner into the drain. IOW I don't handle them at all when hot.

 

Your choice, but you forgot one word.."yet".  ;)  But I dislike carboys so much for a number of reasons I haven't used them in years.



#20 MyaCullen

MyaCullen

    Cheap Blue Meanie

  • Patron
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 68748 posts
  • LocationSpokane, WA

Posted 11 September 2016 - 01:10 PM

Your choice, but you forgot one word.."yet".  ;)  But I dislike carboys so much for a number of reasons I haven't used them in years.

I like them because I already own them and I don't have to spend any more money on them :D




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users