33 replies to this topic

[neddles]

What are your favorite targets for Ca, Cl, SO4, Na or even pH in a Helles.? I am thinking pretty minimal (not zero) amounts of everything and I am starting with RO.

 

ETA: OG will be 1.050, 100% Barke Pils.

Edited by neddles, 15 September 2016 - 04:56 PM.

[Darterboy]

A.J. DeLange's advice has always served me well:

 

"By Ajdelange

One of the first things a beginning brewer is told is that beer is typically 95% water and that, as a consequence of this, getting the water one brews with “correct” for the style is very important. He is also told that most beer styles evolved the way they did because of the nature of the water with which they were originally brewed. Those statements are true enough but the process of understanding what is “correct” and the process of going between the water one has and the “correct” water is, to many, one of the most daunting aspects of brewing.

Many beginning and advanced brewers assume that it is necessary when brewing, for example, a Munich Helles, to duplicate Munich water and there are many places where one can find ion profiles for Munich water and spreadsheets into which one can insert those profiles and details of one’s own water and be given advice on what minerals to add to duplicate Munich. There are multiple potential problems with this approach. First, published water reports are very often wrong. Second, it is not enough to know what Munich water is like, You must also know what the brewer did to make the beer with the existing water. In the case of Helles, for example, the water needs to be softened. Finally, the spreadsheets often calculate salt additions based on simplifications of the chemistry involved, consideration of things that are essentially irrelevant (beer color, chloride to sulfate ration) and reliance on models of things (e.g. effects of dark malt on mash pH) that really can’t be modeled very well. When all the approximations are good the result can be fine but when they aren’t the result can be salt addition recommendations that can have a detrimental effect on the beer,

In this note we are going to take a very simple approach to brewing water preparation. In tailoring water we seek 2 goals. The first, arguably more important than the second, is to be sure that the water properties are consistent with mash pH in a suitable range (5.1 – 5.5). The second is that, on the one hand, the mineral content not add or cause flavors which the drinker may not like and on the other that minerals which have a positive effect on the beer, be available in adequate quantity, The first goal cannot be achieved by the use of water treatment alone. Acid is usually required. This is traditionally supplied in German brewing by the use of lactic acid in the form of sauermalz (acidulated malt) or sauergut (wort fermented by lactic bacteria) while in British practice a blend of mineral acids is usually employed. Thus the recommendations that follow also specify acid additions.

The following recommendations apply to “soft” water. Here we will define soft as meaning RO or distilled water or any water whose lab report indicates alkalinity less than 35 (ppm as CaCO3 – all other numbers to follow mg/L), sulfate less than 20 (as sulfate – Ward Labs reports as sulfur so multiply the SO4-S number by 3 to get as sulfate), chloride less than 20, sodium less than 20, calcium less than 20 and magnesium less than 20. If your water has numbers higher than these, dilute it with RO or DI water. A 1:1 dilution reduces each ion concentration to 1/2, a 2:1 dilution to 1/3 and so on. If your water contains chloramines add 1 campden tablet per 20 gallons (before any dilution)

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Deviate from the baseline as follows:

For soft water beers (i.e Pils, Helles). Use half the baseline amount of calcium chloride and increase the sauermalz to 3%

For beers that use roast malt (Stout, porter): Skip the sauermalz. 

For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

These recommendations should get you a good beer if not the best beer. To get the best you should vary the amounts of the added salts noting carefully whether a change benefits or detriments your enjoyment of the beer. Additional sulfate will sharpen the perceived hops bitterness. Additional chloride will round, smooth and sweeten the beer. Add or decrease these in small amounts.
 

Those serious about getting the best possible results should buy a pH meter and check mash pH increasing or decreasing the amount of sauermalz to get pH around 5.3. Unfortunately the strips don’t seem to work very well."

[neddles]

I remember seeing that Delange post a long time ago. So basically 20ppm or less of everything. Hmmm.

[HVB]

I remember seeing that Delange post a long time ago. So basically 20ppm or less of everything. Hmmm.

I go much higher than that for mine, maybe it is a personal preference but I think it tastes good.

 

[neddles]

I can see going with something in between these two approaches.

[Steve Urquell]

If you really want to get a handle on how much mineral content is right for you it is fairly easy. Keep in mind you can add minerals to the finished beer and affect the flavor just as much as adding them to the mash/sparge. Brew the beer with minimal mineral content. Then go to your ion calculator and put in as small a batch of beer as it will let you. Divide it down to where you can mix "X" amount of a mineral in a liquid solution to equal a certain ppm of SO4, Cl-, or Na+ in 250ml of beer.

Example: I experimented with canning salt in my German pils. Divided it down to where a 250ml solution of water with ?grams(don't have my notes handy) of salt would give me 8ppm of Na+ per 3ml of solution in 250 ml of finished beer.

So I had 2 250ml glasses of beer. 1 control, the other to be dosed. As I added 3ml of solution (8ppm Na+)I would taste the dosed beer against the control. What I found in this instance was that I could notice a difference at 24ppm but all I noticed was that it made the beer taste salty--not fuller/sweeter/more body. This told me I didn't want to add salt to my German pils.

This can be done with any of your salts and you will get a great feel for how they affect the beer's flavor.

[neddles]

24 ppm seems way to low to be able to taste. Was that the finished amount of Na after dosing or was that the amount in the dose?

[Steve Urquell]

24 ppm seems way to low to be able to taste. Was that the finished amount of Na after dosing or was that the amount in the dose?

At 24ppm of Na+ in my sample I could taste saltyness. Keep in mind I was also getting Cl+. But I needed a number where I could judge if canning salt improved my beer. It did not. As the flavor became noticeable, the only difference from the control was salty tasting beer.

[neddles]

At 24ppm of Na+ in my sample I could taste saltyness. Keep in mind I was also getting Cl+. But I needed a number where I could judge if canning salt improved my beer. It did not. As the flavor became noticeable, the only difference from the control was salty tasting beer.

Interesting, thanks. Well, I think I am convinced to keep the mineral content pretty low. I guess if it's missing something I can always dose the glass to see if that helps and proceed from there. 

[Steve Urquell]

Interesting, thanks. Well, I think I am convinced to keep the mineral content pretty low. I guess if it's missing something I can always dose the glass to see if that helps and proceed from there.

Yep. That is the safe way to determine how many minerals you like. Easy to add, impossible to take away. So for my tastebuds I like 25-30 ppm of SO4 and ~75 ppm of Cl+ in my German beers.

[Brauer]

If you want to go traditional, decarboxylated Munich water would be around 40 Ca++, 20 Mg++, 5 Na+, 75 Cl-, 50 SO4--, 30 HCO3-.

The deep well water that Paulaner uses is around 20, 30, 40, for Ca++, SO4--, and Cl-, and almost nothing else. However, perhaps that's a rather dull example of the style.

Edited by Brauer, 16 September 2016 - 09:03 AM.

[denny]

There's no way of knowing if untreated Munich water is what Helles brewers use.  I'd just go for the correct color and flavor profile in Brunwater.

[Brauer]

There's no way of knowing if untreated Munich water is what Helles brewers use. I'd just go for the correct color and flavor profile in Brunwater.

Did someone suggest using untreated Munich water? That would be a terrible choice for a Helles.

[mabrungard]

Decarbonated (aka: boiled)  Munich water has relatively low calcium, sulfate, and chloride. The magnesium is a little higher than homebrewers are used to seeing in malt-focused beers, but clearly it still works for the Munich breweries.

 

If I were starting with RO or DI water, I'd calculate the Ca and Mg salt additions for the entire batch and add them directly to the mashing water. That way, you drive the calcium higher to cause more of the oxalate to be removed from the wort. Keeping the overall concentrations of the ions fairly low, does enable the malt flavors to come through a bit better. No need to target a final calcium concentration in the kettle wort of over 40 ppm since that might overwhelm the soft malt flavor.  

[positiveContact]

I think someone needs to triangle test this one.  I question if tasters would be able to reliably tell the difference between moderately low and really low ion levels.  maybe I'm way off though.

[neddles]

I think someone needs to triangle test this one. I question if tasters would be able to reliably tell the difference between moderately low and really low ion levels. maybe I'm way off though.

Might depend on the mineral too.

[Brauer]

I think someone needs to triangle test this one. I question if tasters would be able to reliably tell the difference between moderately low and really low ion levels. maybe I'm way off though.

Proably not, but I'd like to see an experiment since water chemistry seems to be one of the most significant factors we can manipulate.

I tend to lump anything with <50 ppm into a "low" category, figuring the taste thresholds of Ca, Cl and SO4 have been measured at ~50 ppm. Tinkering below that seems like unnecessary fussiness.

[Genesee Ted]

I go much higher than that for mine, maybe it is a personal preference but I think it tastes good.

2.84 qts/lb? No sparge?

[HVB]

2.84 qts/lb? No sparge?

Yes, no sparge and a 30 minute boil.  I am breaking all the rules

 

To be honest I have started to no-sparge many of my lower ABV beers because I have found no difference in the final product.

[Brauer]

Yes, no sparge and a 30 minute boil. I am breaking all the rules

To be honest I have started to no-sparge many of my lower ABV beers because I have found no difference in the final product.

Interestingly, No-Sparge vs. Batch Sparge was one of the rare occasions when Brülosophy found a significant difference between the beers. No-Sparge is my preferred method, too, but that's because I prefer the results. Batch Sparge is my second favorite, though.

Edited by Brauer, 22 September 2016 - 03:11 PM.