33 replies to this topic

[Big Nake]

I use my source water for all beers now (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27, Bicarb 138). I only add CaCl to my helles water and it's usually around 3 grams. I neutralize the bicarb with lactic acid and my final numbers end up being Ca ~60, Cl ~65 and SO4 27. IMO, I helles should not have a sulfate bite to it at all. It should be very soft and smooth. The 27ppm of SO4 is about as high as I would want.

[HVB]

I use my source water for all beers now (Ca 34, Mg 12, Na 13, Cl 21, SO4 27, Bicarb 138). I only add CaCl to my helles water and it's usually around 3 grams. I neutralize the bicarb with lactic acid and my final numbers end up being Ca ~60, Cl ~65 and SO4 27. IMO, I helles should not have a sulfate bite to it at all. It should be very soft and smooth. The 27ppm of SO4 is about as high as I would want.

Even at the amount of SO4 I use I find it smooth. Of course my smooth could be your aggressive.

[Big Nake]

Even at the amount of SO4 I use I find it smooth. Of course my smooth could be your aggressive.

Yeah, I think it could be just a personal thing. I make plenty of pale ales, red ales, amber ales, etc. and when I make a helles, I expect it to be very smooth and soft. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced but it shouldn't be chalky, spiky, etc.

[neddles]

I am glad this discussion is continuing since I still haven't had the time to make this beer.

[Steve Urquell]

Yeah, I think it could be just a personal thing. I make plenty of pale ales, red ales, amber ales, etc. and when I make a helles, I expect it to be very smooth and soft. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced but it shouldn't be chalky, spiky, etc.

I have a pretty good palate for sulfate and this is what it tastes like to me. Too much doesn't so much have a harsh character as it just tastes like it has too much sulfate. Like too much pepper or salt in food.

[Big Nake]

I am glad this discussion is continuing since I still haven't had the time to make this beer.

You made a good helles and sent me a bottle. Do you have notes on what you did with the water on that beer or was it too long ago? I agree with Chils that you can always start off with low water ions as a base and then when the beer is done, determine if the water needs to be adjusted one way or the other and let your own tastebuds lead the way. If you like a more aggressive character, use more sulfate to begin with. If not, start out low, taste the beer and even add a smidge of gypsum to a glass of it to determine if that is moving the beer in the direction you want. All of these beers start to overlap at some point... standard gold lager, helles, pils, dortmunder, export helles and so on. It's not as much about what you call it... it's about making a beer you love.
 

I have a pretty good palate for sulfate and this is what it tastes like to me. Too much doesn't so much have a harsh character as it just tastes like it has too much sulfate. Like too much pepper or salt in food.

Agreed. At first, it may come across as "crisp" but over the course of the session it may start to accumulate and build up on my tastebuds and I have to push the reset button. That's fine in a pale ale where the recipe might support that amount of sulfate but for me, a helles is not the place for it.

[neddles]

You made a good helles and sent me a bottle. Do you have notes on what you did with the water on that beer or was it too long ago? I agree with Chils that you can always start off with low water ions as a base and then when the beer is done, determine if the water needs to be adjusted one way or the other and let your own tastebuds lead the way. If you like a more aggressive character, use more sulfate to begin with. If not, start out low, taste the beer and even add a smidge of gypsum to a glass of it to determine if that is moving the beer in the direction you want. All of these beers start to overlap at some point... standard gold lager, helles, pils, dortmunder, export helles and so on. It's not as much about what you call it... it's about making a beer you love.

It was about 2.5 yrs ago. That was my first lager. I went with Ca-50, Na-8, SO4-19, Cl-78.  While it attenuated well that beer also had 3/4# dark munich and 1/4# of melanoidin and was it was definitely at the malty end of the style as I understand it. Was looking for something a little lighter this time but with great malt character (or whatever this Barke provides). Also, I don't entirely trust my taste buds from 2.5 yrs ago which is why I started the new inquiry. The recipe this time will include either very little, or more likely, no late hops at all.

[Big Nake]

It was about 2.5 yrs ago. That was my first lager. I went with Ca-50, Na-8, SO4-19, Cl-78.  While it attenuated well that beer also had 3/4# dark munich and 1/4# of melanoidin and was it was definitely at the malty end of the style as I understand it. Was looking for something a little lighter this time but with great malt character (or whatever this Barke provides). Also, I don't entirely trust my taste buds from 2.5 yrs ago which is why I started the new inquiry. The recipe this time will include either very little, or more likely, no late hops at all.

Oh yeah... I FWH my helles and add a 60-minute addition and that's it. An all-Barke Pils Helles with maybe a smidge of Vienna and/or Munich and some Carafoam would be really nice especially with 2124 or 2352 or equivalent. Remember too that a lower mash temp can help with a dry finish and getting the FG down helps as well. A helles should be malty-tasting with some body but then it should finish dry... a tough line to walk on such a simple beer.

[neddles]

Oh yeah... I FWH my helles and add a 60-minute addition and that's it. An all-Barke Pils Helles with maybe a smidge of Vienna and/or Munich and some Carafoam would be really nice especially with 2124 or 2352 or equivalent. Remember too that a lower mash temp can help with a dry finish and getting the FG down helps as well. A helles should be malty-tasting with some body but then it should finish dry... a tough line to walk on such a simple beer.

I am thinking 100% Barke to 1.048-50 and WY2308. Probably will do a 60 min boil as opposed to 30 to keep the hop character to a minimum, but thats not decided yet.

[Big Nake]

If you haven't brewed with the Barke, you're in for a treat. It has a great character. I have WLP830 German Lager up and running right now and some sort of pils-helles type beer is going to be made with it along with Barke Pils and some good noble hops. The 2308 will be nice in that beer too.

[neddles]

Forgot to add that I'll mash at 148F/45 and 160F/15

 

If you haven't brewed with the Barke, you're in for a treat. It has a great character. I have WLP830 German Lager up and running right now and some sort of pils-helles type beer is going to be made with it along with Barke Pils and some good noble hops. The 2308 will be nice in that beer too.

 

That's exactly what I am looking for. Get the full character of that malt in a style that will emphasize it.

[HVB]

Yeah, I think it could be just a personal thing. I make plenty of pale ales, red ales, amber ales, etc. and when I make a helles, I expect it to be very smooth and soft. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be balanced but it shouldn't be chalky, spiky, etc.

It could be my palate but I have not got the chalkyness that people talk about and I have gone pretty high with my mineral additions.  Maybe I am lucky

[neddles]

Brewing this Helles today. Final water numbers Ca-33, SO4-16, Cl-50 mash pH 5.37 @15 min. 

 

Thanks for all the input!

Edited by neddles, 02 October 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[neddles]

Brew was easy. Barke wort tastes great, nothing too unexpected. Got an unexpected bump from this Barke Pils as well. Should have been 1.050 came out at 1.052.