67 replies to this topic

[matt6150]

So I don't think I have ever brewed or tasted a beer with this problem but I'm trying to figure out what went wrong with a current batch. Looking for the latest info on this topic. I know in the past it has been said that over-sparging and over-crushing can produce tannins. And also sparge temps and pH being too high can cause it as well. Some of this stuff has been debunked, but how much truth is there with some of it?

[Brauer]

Not really debunked, just misunderstood, I would say. All those factors have been shown to contribute to tannin extraction, which is always present in beer. They all compound the level of tannin already present in beer. Some combinations (high pH + heat, for example) sinergistically increase tannin extraction, which is often mis-interpreted to mean that is the only combination that will increase the astringency of your beer, whereas they all increase tannin extraction to some degree, individually. Of course you may not notice the difference in an IPA, where there is a lot of astringency contributed by hops.

The example that I use is the difference between first runnings and second, even when pH and temperature are identical. Collect them, adjust to the same gravity, and taste them. The second runnings will probably be more astringent. Or compare Fullers ESB, London Pride and Chiswick Bitter. Chiswick contains the most second runnings frm the same mash, and is noticeably astringent. Of course I'm assuming they control pH.

[Big Nake]

The one spot where I know I got more tannins than I would like is on pale beers where I didn't adjust the pH of my batch sparge... and I did this many times without knowing what I was doing wrong. You don't want your mash or your batch sparge to approach a pH of 6.0. If it does, tannin extraction will definitely detract from the quality of your beer. I now control mash pH and sparge pH (kettle pH as well... to a point) and that is no longer an issue. The malt conditioning cutting down on tannin levels is still unknown AFAIK but I'm always looking for ways to make cleaner, smoother beer so my brain always goes to those conversations. Matt, did anything different happen on the batch in question? A change to your mill, a brand of malt you haven't used, a water change, etc?

[matt6150]

The one spot where I know I got more tannins than I would like is on pale beers where I didn't adjust the pH of my batch sparge... and I did this many times without knowing what I was doing wrong. You don't want your mash or your batch sparge to approach a pH of 6.0. If it does, tannin extraction will definitely detract from the quality of your beer. I now control mash pH and sparge pH (kettle pH as well... to a point) and that is no longer an issue. The malt conditioning cutting down on tannin levels is still unknown AFAIK but I'm always looking for ways to make cleaner, smoother beer so my brain always goes to those conversations. Matt, did anything different happen on the batch in question? A change to your mill, a brand of malt you haven't used, a water change, etc?

I brewed wth grain from open sacks that I have used before without issue. Water is the same source. I did recently replace the bearings in my mill and when I put it back together I narrowed the gap to see if I would get a efficiency increase. But this was the second beer I brewed since the mill change and didn't have any issue. Although the first beer was a IPA and this recent beer in question is a Alt. So some astringency/bitterness could have been covered up with the IPA.

[matt6150]

Also, this particular brew day was a blurry one. The previous night me and buddy stayed up till well past 4am drinking beers and shooting the shit. I then woke up at 7am and mashed in. Woke up again at 8:30am and started sparging. I am certain pH readings were probably not taken, I really don't remember. Not the smartest on my part, but nothing I have never done before.

[Big Nake]

I suppose that with the "fuzziness" of the brewday, you may never know what happened. I have had a few instances where I had some unusual (bad) flavors and never knew what happened. Batches made before and after that (same grains, same yeast) came out fine. I recently switched over from a copper chiller to a stainless version and the first batch I made with it had this sharp, aggressive chemical and metallic bite to it. It wasn't subtle... it was very much in your face. I found a couple of other brewers who had the same issue when they used their stainless chiller for the first time. It apparently had some fabrication oil or other chemical on it and it needed to be cleaned, boiled, etc. before the first use. At least I knew what it was. My guess is that your next batch is going to be just fine and the Alt may just be a mystery.

[positiveContact]

I suppose that with the "fuzziness" of the brewday, you may never know what happened. I have had a few instances where I had some unusual (bad) flavors and never knew what happened. Batches made before and after that (same grains, same yeast) came out fine. I recently switched over from a copper chiller to a stainless version and the first batch I made with it had this sharp, aggressive chemical and metallic bite to it. It wasn't subtle... it was very much in your face. I found a couple of other brewers who had the same issue when they used their stainless chiller for the first time. It apparently had some fabrication oil or other chemical on it and it needed to be cleaned, boiled, etc. before the first use. At least I knew what it was. My guess is that your next batch is going to be just fine and the Alt may just be a mystery.

 

i'm not sure but that may have happened with me the first time I used my copper IC as well.

[denny]

I've found that if your pH is correct, the other factors don't really come into play.  Start by making sure your pH is correct.  If you still have problems, then it's time to look for other causes.

[Brauer]

I've found that there are things you can do that reduce the tannin level in your beer, after you control the pH. For me, the combination of malt conditioning and No-sparging accomplished that.

Although the first beer was a IPA and this recent beer in question is a Alt. So some astringency/bitterness could have been covered up with the IPA.

I find that IPAs are often astringent, from the high hopping rate. Even though they are different, it can be tough to distinguish the astringency and the bitterness, when the bitterness is high. Sometimes, I think that the 'lingering bitterness' that brewers will sometimes complain about is misidentified astringency.

[Big Nake]

I've found that there are things you can do that reduce the tannin level in your beer, after you control the pH. For me, the combination of malt conditioning and No-sparging accomplished that.I find that IPAs are often astringent, from the high hopping rate. Even though they are different, it can be tough to distinguish the astringency and the bitterness, when the bitterness is high. Sometimes, I think that the 'lingering bitterness' that brewers will sometimes complain about is misidentified astringency.

That's a good call. I also find that people will describe something as tannic or astringent when it could be other things. I'm not a professional taster but I know an issue (for me) when I taste it. Matt's issue may not be tannins at all but something else that caused this flavor.

[mabrungard]

My experience is that the number one cause of tannin and silicate extraction is the degree to which you dilute your final runnings. This is one reason that batch spargers and BIAB brewers don't typically have tannin or silicate issues. Its brewers that perform continuous sparging that are more likely to have this problem.

 

The typical lore is to stop your runoff when its gravity reaches about 2 brix (1.008). I found that I had to stop my runoff at about 3 to 4 brix in order to erase my tannin problem. Sparging water pH or temperature seem to be much less of an influence on this issue. 

[Big Nake]

My experience is that the number one cause of tannin and silicate extraction is the degree to which you dilute your final runnings. This is one reason that batch spargers and BIAB brewers don't typically have tannin or silicate issues. Its brewers that perform continuous sparging that are more likely to have this problem.
 
The typical lore is to stop your runoff when its gravity reaches about 2 brix (1.008). I found that I had to stop my runoff at about 3 to 4 brix in order to erase my tannin problem. Sparging water pH or temperature seem to be much less of an influence on this issue.

I admit that when I was a new brewer and heard "Don't oversparge!", I didn't realize it only applied to fly-sparging. There were also references to "channeling" which is also usually only for fly-spargers. Us batch spargers have less to worry about.

[matt6150]

My experience is that the number one cause of tannin and silicate extraction is the degree to which you dilute your final runnings. This is one reason that batch spargers and BIAB brewers don't typically have tannin or silicate issues. Its brewers that perform continuous sparging that are more likely to have this problem.

 

The typical lore is to stop your runoff when its gravity reaches about 2 brix (1.008). I found that I had to stop my runoff at about 3 to 4 brix in order to erase my tannin problem. Sparging water pH or temperature seem to be much less of an influence on this issue. 

Well if true then this could be a problem for me. I will have to keep a better eye on this on my next brew. I am certain that I have had my runoff less than 1.008 towards the end before. What if you haven't reached your desired gravity and/or volume? Just add water?

 

That's a good call. I also find that people will describe something as tannic or astringent when it could be other things. I'm not a professional taster but I know an issue (for me) when I taste it. Matt's issue may not be tannins at all but something else that caused this flavor.

It very well could be. It is definitely bitter/astringent, what caused it I'm not sure. Maybe a yeast issue. The beer took excessively long to start fermenting.

I've found that if your pH is correct, the other factors don't really come into play.  Start by making sure your pH is correct.  If you still have problems, then it's time to look for other causes.

Maybe it is time to graduate from the strips and get a solid meter.

[HVB]

Maybe it is time to graduate from the strips and get a solid meter.

 

Spend the 100 and get a good meter.  Think of the beer would you!

[neddles]

Maybe it is time to graduate from the strips and get a solid meter.

Having used the strips and also having used a meter I would say that simply following the recommended additions in BrunWater (with no meter to confirn) will be more accurate and less ambiguous than the strips. Target a pH of 5.4 with acid or bicarb after all mineral additions have been made and have faith that you will be reasonably close.

Also, FWIW, Martin mentioned a while back that regardless of what his mash pH is early in the mash it always seems to gravitate toward 5.4 by the end of the mash. I have noticed the same on the handful of beers that I bothered to check.

[denny]

It very well could be. It is definitely bitter/astringent, what caused it I'm not sure. Maybe a yeast issue. The beer took excessively long to start fermenting.

 

 

Bitter is not astringent.  A dry mouthfeel is astringent.

[Big Nake]

Spend the 100 and get a good meter.  Think of the beer would you!

I expect nothing less from Drez!

Matt, if you do decide to get a meter, check my pH meter thread or just look at the Omega 7000 series meters which run around $100. I think mine is the 7011 or something. Super accurate, trouble free and in the same price range as many other meters that seem to fall all over themselves. I have had this meter for awhile now and it just works.

[HVB]

I expect nothing less from Drez!

Matt, if you do decide to get a meter, check my pH meter thread or just look at the Omega 7000 series meters which run around $100. I think mine is the 7011 or something. Super accurate, trouble free and in the same price range as many other meters that seem to fall all over themselves. I have had this meter for awhile now and it just works.

Same meter I would recommend if asked.

[Big Nake]

Same meter I would recommend if asked.

Drez, shouldn't we make up some shirts or something that say... Think of the beer would you!

[matt6150]

Bitter is not astringent. A dry mouthfeel is astringent.

Well,ok. But to the untrained palate it is bitter. When I had my wife try the beer, and not telling her what style it was, she said "oh it's hoppy". And I took that as she ment bitter. I told her it was an Alt and only a couple ounces of hops in there. To me yes it is dry and astringent.

I have some new news. I tried the two previous beers I made before the Alt, both hoppy beers. Maybe it's in my head but I am now tasting that same astringent/dry mouthfeel flavor. It is just covered up more with the hops and I believe just coming off as more bitter. At this point I'm just frustrated abd want to dump everything, so I don't know what's going on.