67 replies to this topic

[matt6150]

Having used the strips and also having used a meter I would say that simply following the recommended additions in BrunWater (with no meter to confirn) will be more accurate and less ambiguous than the strips. Target a pH of 5.4 with acid or bicarb after all mineral additions have been made and have faith that you will be reasonably close.

Also, FWIW, Martin mentioned a while back that regardless of what his mash pH is early in the mash it always seems to gravitate toward 5.4 by the end of the mash. I have noticed the same on the handful of beers that I bothered to check.

This has always been my standard practice. But I have found if I add the amount of acid it tells me it comes in very low according to the strips.

[neddles]

The trouble I found with the strips is not only the .35 adjustment you have to make (because they read low), or the ambiguity of the color, but I am pretty sure there is a real pH change in the mash liquid that is the result of cooling it and that it takes several minutes to stabilize, at least according to my meter. So, when you dip the strip is also important. I'd get a meter… I don't find using a meter to be the hassle it is often described as. 

[Big Nake]

Do you run your water through a filter? I had issues when my filter cartridge (which I should have replaced) started to cough up everything it had filtered out. The taste was sharp, metallic and very harsh. Now I taste the water right after filtering it. I'm just grabbing at straws now Matt. That filter issue took out 8-10 batches of my beer because I was preparing for family coming over and brewing like crazy and I filtered all that water through a filter that should have been replaced.

Also... have you been sick or are you on any meds? I remember being on some antibiotics or something and suddenly my beers were tasting weird. I looked up the med online and I found something that said that the med was likely to futz with your sense of taste... especially "bitter" and "sweet"... which surprised me. Once I was done with the meds (7-10 days or something), everything went back to normal.

[matt6150]

The trouble I found with the strips is not only the .35 adjustment you have to make (because they read low), or the ambiguity of the color, but I am pretty sure there is a real pH change in the mash liquid that is the result of cooling it and that it takes several minutes to stabilize, at least according to my meter. So, when you dip the strip is also important. I'd get a meter… I don't find using a meter to be the hassle it is often described as.

.35 adjustment, really, I guess I always thought it was .20. Good to know thanks.

Do you run your water through a filter? I had issues when my filter cartridge (which I should have replaced) started to cough up everything it had filtered out. The taste was sharp, metallic and very harsh. Now I taste the water right after filtering it. I'm just grabbing at straws now Matt. That filter issue took out 8-10 batches of my beer because I was preparing for family coming over and brewing like crazy and I filtered all that water through a filter that should have been replaced.

Also... have you been sick or are you on any meds? I remember being on some antibiotics or something and suddenly my beers were tasting weird. I looked up the med online and I found something that said that the med was likely to futz with your sense of taste... especially "bitter" and "sweet"... which surprised me. Once I was done with the meds (7-10 days or something), everything went back to normal.

No filter, water comes straight from the well.

Not sick or on any meds. I will have some more beer tasters over at my place on Saturday to confirm.

Edit: Wait what kind of filter we talking? Like a large household type?

Edited by matt6150, 06 October 2016 - 07:08 AM.

[neddles]

.35 adjustment, really, I guess I always thought it was .20. Good to know thanks.

 

 

 

Conclusion

While the colorpHast strips can be read with a precision of +/- 0.2 pH units, which is sufficient for checking mash pH, they exhibit a systematic error of 0.3 - 0.4 pH which needs to be taken into account. If a proper mash pH is considered to be between 5.3 and 5.7 when measured at room temperature the pH read with the strips should be between 5.1 and 5.3 as this will place the actual pH around 5.5 which is in the middle of the acceptable range.

https://braukaiser.c...in_home_brewing

[matt6150]

https://braukaiser.c...in_home_brewing

Cool, thanks. Either way, when using bru'n water I would add the amount of acid it told me to to get roughly 5.3 and the strips would indicate in the 4.7-4.8 area.

[positiveContact]

Cool, thanks. Either way, when using bru'n water I would add the amount of acid it told me to to get roughly 5.3 and the strips would indicate in the 4.7-4.8 area.

 

is that including the 0.3 correction?

 

example: 4.8 is actually 5.1 when you account for the correction.

Edited by Evil_Morty, 06 October 2016 - 07:15 AM.

[Big Nake]

.35 adjustment, really, I guess I always thought it was .20. Good to know thanks.
No filter, water comes straight from the well.

Not sick or on any meds. I will have some more beer tasters over at my place on Saturday to confirm.

Edit: Wait what kind of filter we talking? Like a large household type?

Mine is portable and the cartridge is a carbon block jobbie (tall, white cylinder). They say that they have a lifespan of X amount of time (some people say 6 months) or X number of gallons which seems more reasonable. I always have a new backup cartridge and every time I filter water, I sample it to make sure it tastes good. At some point that cartridge will start to burp up everything it has filtered out and the flavor is really nasty... you taste the harsh, astringency on the back of your throat.

On the topic of the pH... I used ColorpHast strips for a long time and I know that many good brewers say that it's good enough and it probably is. But I didn't like the fact that the strips can change and be inaccurate over time, I didn't like the correction factor and neddles point about when you dip the strip is a concern too. I realize now that a mash pH of 5.2 to 5.4 is just fine and you don't really need to super-fine-tune it and I also realize that getting my sparge water pH into the mid-5s is just fine as well... as long as the batch sparge doesn't approach 6.0, it's fine. All that said, I like the accuracy of the meter and I like to see what the results are without guessing. This Omega meter shows results by hundredths (not tenths) which is also nice and it just gives me some confidence in a hobby where confidence can be dashed and where things happen without us knowing about it. Same with my Thermapen... I like to know. Also... once you see how things go with a meter and how you need to treat the water to get the right pH (different for all of us), you start to see how things go to the point where you could probably do it without the meter or the strips at all. I know that if I make a pale beer like a pils or helles, I need about 4ml of acid in my mash and another 2ml in my sparge to have the proper pH. But I only know that because of all the batches I made and used my meter, took notes, etc. It's a good feeling.

[positiveContact]

until I think I might have a pH problem I can't quite justify the meter.  should that problem arise I'll be picking one up though.

[HVB]

until I think I might have a pH problem I can't quite justify the meter.  should that problem arise I'll be picking one up though.

I can see this approach.  I just like knowing what the number is through the process including finished beer.  I know strips can do that but a meter is so easy.  But I am not one to talk since I have 2 ...

[neddles]

until I think I might have a pH problem I can't quite justify the meter. should that problem arise I'll be picking one up though.

Yeah I dont think this is a bad approach either. It just requires a bit more faith.

[positiveContact]

Yeah I dont think this is a bad approach either. It just requires a bit more faith.

 

I guess it would be niiiiice.....

[Big Nake]

I never liked the idea of having to care for the meter, calibrate it, apparently they have a lifespan of only 2 years, etc. My Milwaukee meter was such a piece of garbage that I regretted buying it. But the Omega is very hassle free and the way the cap fits with some amount of low-pH water or storage solution in it makes it very easy to own. I used to buy a lot of cal solution for the Milwaukee but I haven't bought any more because the Omega doesn't require it nearly as much. I guess I just don't like the idea of risking 4-5 hours and the ingredients on possibly bad beer or beer that is not what I want and I feel like I have the proper tools to control things and eliminate or lower that risk. The only cautionary issue now is my feeble brain!

[Brauer]

Well,ok. But to the untrained palate it is bitter. When I had my wife try the beer, and not telling her what style it was, she said "oh it's hoppy". And I took that as she ment bitter. I told her it was an Alt and only a couple ounces of hops in there. To me yes it is dry and astringent

A lot of people have trouble making this distinction. Also, so many people drink very bitter and astringent beer or wine that they have become used to the sensation, making it harder to isolate.

To make it worse, tannins are both astringent and bitter.

[matt6150]

is that including the 0.3 correction?

 

example: 4.8 is actually 5.1 when you account for the correction.

No

[matt6150]

Mine is portable and the cartridge is a carbon block jobbie (tall, white cylinder). They say that they have a lifespan of X amount of time (some people say 6 months) or X number of gallons which seems more reasonable. I always have a new backup cartridge and every time I filter water, I sample it to make sure it tastes good. At some point that cartridge will start to burp up everything it has filtered out and the flavor is really nasty... you taste the harsh, astringency on the back of your throat.

Ok, well mine is a large household one that the water runs through when it comes out of the well. Not carbon or anything. I change it every 6 months or so, but will check it out. The water tastes just fine though coming out of my faucet.

[Brauer]

...but I am pretty sure there is a real pH change in the mash liquid that is the result of cooling it and that it takes several minutes to stabilize, at least according to my meter. So, when you dip the strip is also important. I'd get a meter… I don't find using a meter to be the hassle it is often described as.

Just a note on this: when I did calibration experiments for the strips against a lab meter, I found that the ~0.3 low reading was relative to mash pH, whether you measure the wort hot or cool.

In other words, while the pH of the liquid does change with temperature, the change in the chemistry of the strips allows you to ignore that factor. At least that was true for the single pale wort I tested.

I originally planned on doing more work on the strips, but nearly everyone seems to have moved to meters.

[Big Nake]

Ok, well mine is a large household one that the water runs through when it comes out of the well. Not carbon or anything. I change it every 6 months or so, but will check it out. The water tastes just fine though coming out of my faucet.

My guess is that if it's good for the rest of your house, then your filter cartridge is fine. Mine is portable but I know people who have them inline especially for wells. I use mine mostly to remove chlorine (the source water here tastes and smells like a public pool) but it's also supposed to remove some amount of organic flavor and particulate. If you use your well water (through the filter) for drinking, cooking, coffee, powdered drinks of any kind... you would already know that your cartridge was ready to swap out. I'm grabbing at straws because your description sounds like it could be almost anything at this point and bad water, a new chiller and poor pH control were my personal culprits.

[neddles]

Just a note on this: when I did calibration experiments for the strips against a lab meter, I found that the ~0.3 low reading was relative to mash pH, whether you measure the wort hot or cool.

In other words, while the pH of the liquid does change with temperature, the change in the chemistry of the strips allows you to ignore that factor. At least that was true for the single pale wort I tested.

I originally planned on doing more work on the strips, but nearly everyone seems to have moved to meters.

Either I am a little slow (very possible) or were not saying the same thing. I'll try again. The strips, as you noted, will be ~0.3 low regardless of the temperature at which the sample is measured. However, I am postulating that when you take a sample of the mash at say 153F and rapidly cool it to 68F (or wherever you cool it to) before testing, the actual change in pH is not immediate. It seems to take a good 3-5 minutes to fully change. So the strip reading will depend on when you take it after cooling.

 

Now, I could be talking from my posterior because this is based strictly on my own observations... so correct me where I am wrong. I used to think that my pH probe was screwy. However, mash is the only substance I put my probe in takes time to come to a stable reading. For everything else I measure the pH of the reading is almost immediate. (1-3 sec.) I cool my samples within a minute or so to 68F (where my probe is set) put the probe in and it immediately drops to let's say ~5.15 (on a beer where I targeted 5.40) before slowing and reversing. It then begins to rise and continues to do so for 3-5 minutes. The last few hundredths changing slowly before coming to a stable reading somewhere near 5.40.

 

This makes perfect sense to me because the pH of the mash should be lower at higher temps. Also considering the complex chemistry of the mash it would not surprise me one bit to find that it takes a few minutes for the chemical changes to come to equilibrium. But again, I am mostly making 2+2=4  based on my own observations when in fact it could be 2+2=5 as I have seen nothing definitive on this when browsing the web.

Edited by neddles, 06 October 2016 - 11:03 AM.

[Brauer]

Either I am a little slow (very possible) or were not saying the same thing. I'll try again. The strips, as you noted, will be ~0.3 low regardless of the temperature at which the sample is measured. However, I am postulating that when you take a sample of the mash at say 153F and rapidly cool it to 68F (or wherever you cool it to) before testing, the actual change in pH is not immediate. It seems to take a good 3-5 minutes to fully change. So the strip reading will depend on when you take it after cooling.

Now, I could be talking from my posterior because this is based strictly on my own observations... so correct me where I am wrong. I used to think that my pH probe was screwy. However, mash is the only substance I put my probe in takes time to come to a stable reading. For everything else I measure the pH of the reading is almost immediate. (1-3 sec.) I cool my samples within a minute or so to 68F (where my probe is set) put the probe in and it immediately drops to let's say ~5.15 (on a beer where I targeted 5.40) before slowing and reversing. It then begins to rise and continues to do so for 3-5 minutes. The last few hundredths changing slowly before coming to a stable reading somewhere near 5.40.

This makes perfect sense to me because the pH of the mash should be lower at higher temps. Also considering the complex chemistry of the mash it would not surprise me one bit to find that it takes a few minutes for the chemical changes to come to equilibrium. But again, I am mostly making 2+2=4 based on my own observations when in fact it could be 2+2=5 as I have seen nothing definitive on this when browsing the web.

That would be something a bit different than what I tested. I cooled, then tested, without noting how long I waited. I then took a second measurement to make sure the 2 agreed.