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Vienna Malt


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#1 neddles

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:44 AM

I should know this malt better. Thinking ahead a few batches I am considering doing a 100% Vienna malt beer. Anyone here done this before? Recommendations? Looking around the web most of what I see is mid gravity lagers and Pale Ales. Both sound like a good idea.

 

I've been kicking around the idea of a mid gravity amber lager with a bit of a pleasant toasty quality to it. Will a Vienna base help get me there or is it too much bread and not enough toast? Are are there some accent malts I should pair with it to help achieve that or move up to a light Munich? 

 

Discuss.


Edited by neddles, 12 October 2016 - 04:45 AM.


#2 HVB

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:53 AM

I have read of many people doing a SMASH beer with Vienna and having good success with it.  I say go for it.  I am not sure what it would evne be considered but 100% Vienna, Hallertau and 34/70 sounds good to me.



#3 ChicagoWaterGuy

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 05:19 AM

I've brewed Vienna lagers with 100% Vienna malt. Or possibly with a bit of midnight wheat to color it up. I think they're tasty, toasty and malty.

#4 Big Nake

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 06:39 AM

I did one awhile back after seeing someone else's 100% Vienna. It was a typical beer for me: 5%, 25-30 IBUs, etc. A 100% Vienna malt beer only comes in around 5 SRM or so and there is good depth and character. I believe I used Best Malz Vienna which comes in around 3-5L. Light Munich is usually 6-8L and Dark Munich is typically 9-11L. I believe I also made a 100% Rahr Pale Ale beer which actually came out darker than the 100% Vienna beer. Also, the all-Vienna beer had some very nice head formation and stability.

#5 Poptop

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 07:37 AM

A 100% Vienna SMASH is something I want to get to. First I'm going to do Jamil's Vienna, which has 45% Vienna in the bill.

#6 Big Nake

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 09:09 AM

A 100% Vienna SMASH is something I want to get to. First I'm going to do Jamil's Vienna, which has 45% Vienna in the bill.

Jamil's Vienna with 2308 is a beautiful beer. I'll be making it sometime in the next few months. From my first batch of it...

j5jbqs.jpg

#7 Poptop

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 12:50 PM

Vision of beauty Man

#8 BlKtRe

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 02:12 PM

So it seems Vienna and Munich are pretty close. Not really worth keeping lots of both on hand around here.

Edited by BlKtRe, 12 October 2016 - 02:12 PM.


#9 Big Nake

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 03:21 PM

So it seems Vienna and Munich are pretty close. Not really worth keeping lots of both on hand around here.

I think that if you chose to skip one, you could skip Vienna or light munich and interchange them with no real issues. Dark munich is different enough that I would want to have it around along with one of the other 2.

#10 neddles

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 03:49 PM

Lots of good input, thanks.

 

Like Ken I have always likened light Munich and Vienna but just don't have enough familiarity with either one really. 



#11 Big Nake

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:09 PM

Lots of good input, thanks.
 
Like Ken I have always likened light Munich and Vienna but just don't have enough familiarity with either one really.

These are great malts and will give some really nice depth to simple beers and can add to the overall character of something like Jamil's Vienna which contains Vienna, light and dark Munich, carafa special, etc. If you decide to make a 100% Vienna malt beer, try to go for a good German maltster like Weyermann or Best. It will be a good way for you to get snuggly with Vienna malt and experience what it can do for a beer. I would also (personally) hop it moderately so you don't bury it. A beer with half pilsner and half Vienna or half light or dark Munich along with a simple hop schedule (either 60- only or maybe 60 plus a 5-min addition) with noble hops and a good yeast can create a beer that you just can't get enough of, IMO. Fresh ingredients and a well-executed brewday are important on such finesse beers. Cheers.

#12 Steve Urquell

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 04:24 PM

I've done a couple with MFB Vienna but am not really impressed with this malt. I feel BM is a better/tastier Vienna. Which Vienn maltster are you using? 

Here are my two mostly Vienna  batches. Mostly.

https://www.brews-br...02-smash/page-2

https://www.brews-br...cz-schwarzbier/



#13 Big Nake

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 05:00 PM

I've done a couple with MFB Vienna but am not really impressed with this malt. I feel BM is a better/tastier Vienna. Which Vienn maltster are you using?

I like simple beers with a simple recipe but I have concluded that you should not use "simple" ingredients... or how about "low-end" ingredients. A blonde ale I recently made where the vast majority of the grist was standard Rahr 2-row base malt... came out kind of boring. It would have been better with some percentage of Rahr Pale Ale malt, MO, GP, Vienna or Munich. I have a helles that has been lagering at 35° since August 14 in the fridge and it was all Barke Pils plus 12 ounces each of Vienna and Munich Light (plus CaraHell or Carafoam... 4oz) and I'm really looking forward to it because the beers I've been making with this Barke Pils have been great. Simple recipes but with higher-end stuff seems to be working for me.

#14 Steve Urquell

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 05:12 PM

I like simple beers with a simple recipe but I have concluded that you should not use "simple" ingredients... or how about "low-end" ingredients. A blonde ale I recently made where the vast majority of the grist was standard Rahr 2-row base malt... came out kind of boring. It would have been better with some percentage of Rahr Pale Ale malt, MO, GP, Vienna or Munich. I have a helles that has been lagering at 35° since August 14 in the fridge and it was all Barke Pils plus 12 ounces each of Vienna and Munich Light (plus CaraHell or Carafoam... 4oz) and I'm really looking forward to it because the beers I've been making with this Barke Pils have been great. Simple recipes but with higher-end stuff seems to be working for me.

I agree on the quality of the base malt but will say that it is nearly impossible to judge it from batch to batch (remember my Floor Malt debacle) I think Avangard Pilsner is a great example of price not dictating quality. That stuff is cheap but I've heard great things about it. This is a very dynamic hobby WRT quality of ingredients.



#15 Big Nake

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Posted 12 October 2016 - 05:39 PM

I agree on the quality of the base malt but will say that it is nearly impossible to judge it from batch to batch (remember my Floor Malt debacle) I think Avangard Pilsner is a great example of price not dictating quality. That stuff is cheap but I've heard great things about it. This is a very dynamic hobby WRT quality of ingredients.

True. Avangard Pils is a European malt and I have gone through a couple of sacks of it with good results. I'm not sure that I would say that the Avangard beers were better than say Best malz or even the Weyermann pils (regular, floor-malted, Barke) batches and I even have some Belgian Pils batches in there too but I keep changing things, tweaking things and adding things (brewtan) so it's tough to compare.

Re-reading the OP... I'm not sure that you're going to get "toasty" notes from 100% Vienna. You will get good, deep character with a good amount of breadiness and maltiness, for sure but not sure on the toasty thing. Maybe someone else could chime in on that part.

#16 neddles

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 05:04 AM

I've done a couple with MFB Vienna but am not really impressed with this malt. I feel BM is a better/tastier Vienna. Which Vienn maltster are you using? 

Here are my two mostly Vienna  batches. Mostly.

https://www.brews-br...02-smash/page-2

https://www.brews-br...cz-schwarzbier/

Best Malz Vienna is the one available at my usual online supplier so I will probably go that way. I have heard that MFB's Vienna is pretty tame and that their "Special Aromatic" (5L)  is more vienna-like. No experience.

 

 

True. Avangard Pils is a European malt and I have gone through a couple of sacks of it with good results. I'm not sure that I would say that the Avangard beers were better than say Best malz or even the Weyermann pils (regular, floor-malted, Barke) batches and I even have some Belgian Pils batches in there too but I keep changing things, tweaking things and adding things (brewtan) so it's tough to compare.

Re-reading the OP... I'm not sure that you're going to get "toasty" notes from 100% Vienna. You will get good, deep character with a good amount of breadiness and maltiness, for sure but not sure on the toasty thing. Maybe someone else could chime in on that part.

 

So I dug into a couple books on hand.

Randy Mosher says of Vienna "A clean caramelly character without toastiness" "Use: Basemalt when a caramel character without a toasty edge is desired.

 

About Vienna, Mallett says in Malt "The flavor is slightly toasty, slightly nutty, and pairs well with spicy, noble hops." He also says of biscuit malt "The flavors share some characteristics with Vienna malt but are much more intense."

 

So it seems it may really depend on who's tasting it and probably even more on which maltster produced it. I going to have try this out for my self. I'll probably start with a 100% vienna lager, maybe something "SMaSH-ish" along the lines of what Drez suggested.  



#17 HVB

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 05:23 AM

So it seems it may really depend on who's tasting it and probably even more on which maltster produced it.

So true!  I have some Gambrinas Vienna and that comes in at 5-6L so it is very close to Munich.



#18 Big Nake

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:30 AM

So it seems it may really depend on who's tasting it and probably even more on which maltster produced it. I going to have try this out for my self. I'll probably start with a 100% vienna lager, maybe something "SMaSH-ish" along the lines of what Drez suggested.

That would be a good start. If you hop it more, you'll get less of the Vienna character and it may be harder to tell what you're tasting in the malt. If you wanted that bread/toast, try some biscuit and even a small percentage of dark munich. I have made many, many iterations of this beer with a high percentage of Vienna and/or Munich along with noble hops and a good lager yeast... delicious. Cheers and good luck with the beer.

#19 positiveContact

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 06:43 AM

I find I typically like my malty lagers to have a mix of base grains.

 

like 3:2:1 Vienna, pils, munich

 

or 3:1 pils, munich

 

or whatever you like.  I just find it adds a nice complexity without getting muddled.



#20 BlKtRe

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Posted 13 October 2016 - 07:04 AM

I find I typically like my malty lagers to have a mix of base grains.

 

like 3:2:1 Vienna, pils, munich

 

or 3:1 pils, munich

 

or whatever you like.  I just find it adds a nice complexity without getting muddled.

 

I've found that blending Vienna and Munich the Vienna gets lost. I can sorta see that dark Munich can be separated out of the equation but as I noted earlier seems like Im wasting time/space having both on hand because of the similarities. 




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