22 replies to this topic

[HVB]

Pretty good read on water and building up water

 

https://brulosophy.c...ater-chemistry/

 

 

[Big Nake]

Yep, good stuff there. I feel like I have a good grasp on most of that but the one piece of the water conversation I always wonder about is Na. My Na number is 12 and it popped into my head as I read that article when it said something about the water "being the seasoning of the beer". I always try to get my calcium up to about 50-60ppm, I ignore magnesium (mine is 13ppm) because I've been told that grain contains plenty of magnesium already, I use the chloride and sulfate levels to control softness vs. crispness and I only look at the bicarb number because I know I need to add lactic acid to neutralize it. That leaves Na and I think I started a thread on this somewhere about how the beer character would change if you played with the Na number. I've heard of people using kosher salt (or sea salt?) if they think they need it. Does anyone here specifically go out of their way to adjust it? What are your Na numbers from your source water? For those using RO or distilled, do you add kosher salt or something for Na?

[HVB]

I do not bother to add any (extra) sodium but I think (Think!) you could do that in your glass and see if it makes a difference.

 

This is from the Bru'n Water FB page December 23, 2015

 

 

SODIUM...IT'S OK IN BEER

A recent post by a brewer with somewhat elevated sodium content in his tap water pointed out a potential misconception that many brewers have about sodium. Many think that sodium is never desirable in beer, but it's OK to have a modest sodium content in beer. This is one of the many points that John Palmer and I tried to point out in the Water book. Great beer can be made with sodium in the brewing water.

One of the trials that John conducted while working on the book was to spike a few of his beers with various sodium salts to assess the effect on beer flavor. In every case, beer flavor improved with minor sodium content. Fifty to 100 ppm sodium is not a red flag for all brewing. In the case of darker styles, sodium is very often beneficial to beer flavor.

The illustrative finding from the brewer mentioned above with the elevated sodium content in his water, is that he has advanced multiple beers brewed with his tap water to the final round of the National Homebrew Championship and the MCAB. Having tasted at least one of his beers myself, I can attest that sodium in the 80 to 100 ppm range can taste great. By the way, sodium doesn't taste salty until its concentration is around 250 ppm. That is well above the desirable level in beer.

Don't be afraid of sodium in your brewing water. The only caution is that high sodium with high sulfate can be rough tasting. Otherwise, do consider boosting sodium in some of your beers.

Enjoy!

[Big Nake]

I do not bother to add any (extra) sodium but I think (Think!) you could do that in your glass and see if it makes a difference.
 
This is from the Bru'n Water FB page December 23, 2015

Mmm, good stuff. What do you have for an Na number in your brewing water?

[HVB]

Mmm, good stuff. What do you have for an Na number in your brewing water?

 

 

My well water is

26 Calcium

3 Magnesium

24 Sodium

12 Sulfate

38 Chloride

65 Bicarb

 

I am pretty low on everything and I just focus on Calcium, Sulfate and Chloride and of course pH.

[positiveContact]

enjoying this read so far.

[positiveContact]

I wonder about this test.  I always find my ice cube water has a bit of an off taste due to food in the freezer.

 

 

 

In preparation for writing this piece, I asked my wife to help me perform a simple triangle test that’s easy enough for anyone to easily do on their own– one cup was filled with filtered water from my regrigerator while two contained unfiltered water straight from my faucet, each receiving a single ice cube to ensure consistent temperature before she served them to me. Based on aroma alone, I was consistently able to identify the unique sample, which added to my strong opinion that water chemistry matters in beer and shouldn’t be the last thing brewers focus on.

 

[HVB]

I wonder about this test.  I always find my ice cube water has a bit of an off taste due to food in the freezer.

 

I agree with you about the ice cube off flavor. 

[HVB]

For fun I went to Bru'n Water and put in my house APA ( Chinook/Citra aka "Waterpark") and with no additions, like I would have brewed a few years back my pH would be 5.80!

[positiveContact]

For fun I went to Bru'n Water and put in my house APA ( Chinook/Citra aka "Waterpark") and with no additions, like I would have brewed a few years back my pH would be 5.80!

 

oh yeah - everything I make pretty much needs adjustment.  stouts are borderline but still benefit from a little calcium chloride.

[HVB]

oh yeah - everything I make pretty much needs adjustment.  stouts are borderline but still benefit from a little calcium chloride.

I need to go back and do the same experiment on my lagers and stouts.  Lagers get the least and it is mainly acid and a touch of gypsum. 

 

It does seam though once you go down the rabbit hole there is no coming back.

[HVB]

I need to go back and do the same experiment on my lagers and stouts.  Lagers get the least and it is mainly acid and a touch of gypsum. 

 

It does seam though once you go down the rabbit hole there is no coming back.

Stout is 5.47 and Helles is 5.55 but that does have acid malt in the grist. 

[Steve Urquell]

For those using RO or distilled, do you add kosher salt or something for Na?

Canning salt so you don't add iodine (iodized salt) which is toxic to yeast
 

I do not bother to add any (extra) sodium but I think (Think!) you could do that in your glass and see if it makes a difference.
 
This is from the Bru'n Water FB page December 23, 2015

Neddles and I were discussing this in another thread. Here's what I told him.

https://www.brews-br...t-for-a-helles/
 
 

If you really want to get a handle on how much mineral content is right for you it is fairly easy. Keep in mind you can add minerals to the finished beer and affect the flavor just as much as adding them to the mash/sparge. Brew the beer with minimal mineral content. Then go to your ion calculator and put in as small a batch of beer as it will let you. Divide it down to where you can mix "X" amount of a mineral in a liquid solution to equal a certain ppm of SO4, Cl-, or Na+ in 250ml of beer.

Example: I experimented with canning salt in my German pils. Divided it down to where a 250ml solution of water with ?grams(don't have my notes handy) of salt would give me 8ppm of Na+ per 3ml of solution in 250 ml of finished beer.

So I had 2 250ml glasses of beer. 1 control, the other to be dosed. As I added 3ml of solution (8ppm Na+)I would taste the dosed beer against the control. What I found in this instance was that I could notice a difference at 24ppm but all I noticed was that it made the beer taste salty--not fuller/sweeter/more body. This told me I didn't want to add salt to my German pils.

This can be done with any of your salts and you will get a great feel for how they affect the beer's flavor.

 

At 24ppm of Na+ in my sample I could taste saltiness. Keep in mind I was also getting Cl+. But I needed a number where I could judge if canning salt improved my beer. It did not. As the flavor became noticeable, the only difference from the control was salty tasting beer.

[SchwanzBrewer]

I had this incredible helles that my buddy brought back from Germany the other day. I've never had a lager that was that well balanced and that fine tasting in the states. The mouthfeel was perfect. It absolutely made the beer. I suspect it has to do with the water. I have hard water and I just can not make my beers have that mouthfeel. It was one of those beers where you taste it and just know immediately that it's an incredible beer. It was from a small brewery in bavaria. They don't have distribution outside of their town and you have to hike up a mountain to get to the brewery. Whenever he goes back he brings as much of that beer with him as he can. I'll try and figure out the name. I know it started with a T.

[positiveContact]

I had this incredible helles that my buddy brought back from Germany the other day. I've never had a lager that was that well balanced and that fine tasting in the states. The mouthfeel was perfect. It absolutely made the beer. I suspect it has to do with the water. I have hard water and I just can not make my beers have that mouthfeel. It was one of those beers where you taste it and just know immediately that it's an incredible beer. It was from a small brewery in bavaria. They don't have distribution outside of their town and you have to hike up a mountain to get to the brewery. Whenever he goes back he brings as much of that beer with him as he can. I'll try and figure out the name. I know it started with a T.

 

have you tried some RO?

[Big Nake]

I had this incredible helles that my buddy brought back from Germany the other day. I've never had a lager that was that well balanced and that fine tasting in the states. The mouthfeel was perfect. It absolutely made the beer. I suspect it has to do with the water. I have hard water and I just can not make my beers have that mouthfeel. It was one of those beers where you taste it and just know immediately that it's an incredible beer. It was from a small brewery in bavaria. They don't have distribution outside of their town and you have to hike up a mountain to get to the brewery. Whenever he goes back he brings as much of that beer with him as he can. I'll try and figure out the name. I know it started with a T.

Sounds incredible and it's one of the reasons I love helles... simple but so satisfying. I have always said that American breweries don't make German beers like Germans do outside of a very few exceptions. I could see chloride giving the beer a full, rounded smoothness. It would be interesting to combine the information here with the other thread on base malt. A helles with 50% Barke Pils and 50% Pale Ale malt, the proper water, the right hops and yeast... could be something I could do with WL830 coming up very soon. Cheers my friend. Where have you been? I had guessed earlier that you were hard at work opening your own brewery but I don't think I guessed right.

[SchwanzBrewer]

Tegernseer Hell is the bier. I haven't tried to brew a helles yet. The latest kolsch I brewed I changed to 1/2 ro water. I haven't tried it in a couple weeks. I'll rectify that tonight.

I talked about the helles because I think the importance of the water in brewing that beer.

[Big Nake]

Tegernseer Hell is the bier. I haven't tried to brew a helles yet. The latest kolsch I brewed I changed to 1/2 ro water. I haven't tried it in a couple weeks. I'll rectify that tonight.

I talked about the helles because I think the importance of the water in brewing that beer.

I know that I have posted THIS many times, but I think that everything comes into play when you make a helles. If you haven't read that BYO article before, take a look at it. It's not the end-all-be-all of helles information but I like the way that he describes how you're supposed to only use pilsner malt and yet get this rich, complex character and then a dry finish on top of it. The balance is key too and I tend to aim a little higher on the IBUs because I assume that the beer may lager for a couple of months and I would rather err on the side of slightly too much hop presence as opposed to not enough. Water, fresh grains (and the right kinds), fresh noble hops, a suitable yeast and a steady hand. When everything is right, it's such a great beer.

[denny]

It's times like this when I'm grateful I don't care for helles!

[HVB]

It's times like this when I'm grateful I don't care for helles!

Never cared for it till I went to Germany... All downhill from there