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Interesting base malt discussion...


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#1 Big Nake

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Posted 27 October 2016 - 08:19 PM

I saw THIS over on AHA today. I believe this is Bryan Rabe and he is talking about using various base malts in his beers based on the adjustments he has made to his system. I'm not quite sure what he has done to make just 5% of the grist Vienna or Munich that brought out the weird flavors he's describing but when he mentioned mixing pilsner 50/50 with pale ale malt, a bell rang. I recently made an "American Premium" that I mentioned here where I used 50% Barke Pils and 50% Rahr 2-row for the base malt (I also had some flaked corn and also carafoam in there). That particular beer came out really, really nice. Like way beyond my expectations for that beer and I only mixed the base malts the way I did so that it would have a more "American" flavor. Has anyone else made something like a helles or pilsner by mixing 50/50 pilsner and pale ale malt? Cheers Beerheads.

#2 HVB

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:00 AM

I saw THIS over on AHA today. I believe this is Bryan Rabe

Yes, that is him.

 

ETA:  What is with the shorthand abbreviations.


Edited by drez77, 28 October 2016 - 05:01 AM.


#3 positiveContact

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:09 AM

Yes, that is him.

 

ETA:  What is with the shorthand abbreviations.

 

those abbreviations make me go :wacko:



#4 positiveContact

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:16 AM

well i'm not sure I would have thought to use pale ale malt in a german lager.  but if it's good it's good and who am I to argue?



#5 Brauer

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:26 AM

I'd be curious to find out what's wrong with his system. I'm not sure what 'tightening' a system is; overextracting, maybe? By 'sour', maybe he means astringency, since sour is a measure of pH, not a malt flavor. I have to say I had a lot of trouble getting past 'muma', and I had a pretty bad attitude about the post, after that.

Blending base malts is a popular way to dilute the flavor of the malt associated with a style. A lot German brewery's Dunkels are made with a mix of Pilsner and Munich malt, to blunt the Munich for poeple that don't want the stronger flavor. I've made both, and prefer the all/mostly Munich version, but I can appreciate a diluted, Hofbräuhaus version, too. Wiesn, instead of Oktoberfest, is a similar situation. NEIPAs are typically made with Wheat and Oat adjunct to get the malt flavor out of the way of the hop flavor, in part. Of course, American and Mexican lager are the most infamous examples, with malt blended with adjunct to remove as much malt flavor as possible.

#6 HVB

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:30 AM

I'd be curious to find out what's wrong with his system. I'm not sure what 'tightening' a system is; overextracting, maybe? By 'sour', maybe he means astringency, since sour is a measure of pH, not a malt flavor. I have to say I had a lot of trouble getting past 'muma', and I had a pretty bad attitude about the post, after that.

Blending base malts is a popular way to dilute the flavor of the malt associated with a style. A lot German brewery's Dunkels are made with a mix of Pilsner and Munich malt, to blunt the Munich for poeple that don't want the stronger flavor. I've made both, and prefer the all/mostly Munich version, but I can appreciate a diluted, Hofbräuhaus version, too. Wiesn, instead of Oktoberfest, is a similar situation. NEIPAs are typically made with Wheat and Oat adjunct to get the malt flavor out of the way of the hop flavor, in part. Of course, American and Mexican lager are the most infamous examples, with malt blended with adjunct to remove as much malt flavor as possible.

 

He will say nothing is wrong.  He is one of the leaders of the LODO movement and that paper ( PDF) that was put out several months back.



#7 Poptop

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:32 AM

Interesting article and method worth exploring. Nix on the abbreviations. They make me uncomfortable haha.

He will say nothing is wrong.  He is one of the leaders of the LODO movement and that paper ( PDF) that was put out several months back.


Splain please

Never mind. Found it.

Edited by Steppedonapoptop, 28 October 2016 - 05:45 AM.


#8 HVB

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:45 AM

Interesting article and method worth exploring. Nix on the abbreviations. They make me uncomfortable haha.

Splain please

We talked about it here.  Basically we are all brewing bad inferior beer that sucks.  I do not want to link the paper.



#9 Big Nake

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 05:56 AM

I had to ask about the pima, vima, muma. I probably should have guessed but I did not. Some of the things being done with the low-O2 process tends to have an impact on malt character. I don't pretend to know since I'm not really doing any low-O2 brewing but even the steps that I did take, plus the brewtan, I seem to be getting a deeper, richer malt profile. That led me to ask why he was mixing the base malts... too MUCH of something or too LITTLE. Surprisingly he said that pilsner-only was flat... and I consider the pilsner malt he's using (Weyermann Barke) to be very rich and full of flavor. It's just funny to me because when I went to make this American Premium, I cut the base malt with Rahr 2-row to deaden the malt depth a little bit (I realize he is using pale ale malt and I only used Rahr 2-row) and I liked my result. He's attempting to amp up his Barke with Pale Ale malt and based on some of the pale ale malt I have used, I could see it working. I just thought the whole concept was interesting because we might ordinarily use all pilsner plus some amount of Vienna and/or Munich and at only 5%, he's saying it didn't work. I would probably use more Vienna or Munich than just 5% if I were making a Helles, Pilsner or Czech Pils. More good information for those of us who think beer.

#10 positiveContact

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:02 AM

I'd be curious to find out what's wrong with his system. I'm not sure what 'tightening' a system is; overextracting, maybe? By 'sour', maybe he means astringency, since sour is a measure of pH, not a malt flavor. I have to say I had a lot of trouble getting past 'muma', and I had a pretty bad attitude about the post, after that.

Blending base malts is a popular way to dilute the flavor of the malt associated with a style. A lot German brewery's Dunkels are made with a mix of Pilsner and Munich malt, to blunt the Munich for poeple that don't want the stronger flavor. I've made both, and prefer the all/mostly Munich version, but I can appreciate a diluted, Hofbräuhaus version, too. Wiesn, instead of Oktoberfest, is a similar situation. NEIPAs are typically made with Wheat and Oat adjunct to get the malt flavor out of the way of the hop flavor, in part. Of course, American and Mexican lager are the most infamous examples, with malt blended with adjunct to remove as much malt flavor as possible.

 

I'm kind of a wuss when it comes to munich.  I def like to cut it with some pils.



#11 Poptop

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:15 AM

We talked about it here.  Basically we are all brewing bad inferior beer that sucks.  I do not want to link the paper.


Thanks. Denny nailed it in #12 and from there is went....

#12 Big Nake

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:40 AM

Thanks. Denny nailed it in #12 and from there is went....

I do agree but I have always been receptive to at least listen to brewing information. If it turns out to be bad info, fine. If it turns out to be useful and even important... I can use that information and I don't have to ride my bicycle-built-for-two down to the campground for the weekend with the person who gave me the information. :D It costs me nothing to be open-minded about things I may have never thought of and things that may become useful tools in my toolbox at some point down the road.

#13 positiveContact

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 06:45 AM

I do agree but I have always been receptive to at least listen to brewing information. If it turns out to be bad info, fine. If it turns out to be useful and even important... I can use that information and I don't have to ride my bicycle-built-for-two down to the campground for the weekend with the person who gave me the information. :D It costs me nothing to be open-minded about things I may have never thought of and things that may become useful tools in my toolbox at some point down the road.

 

just be careful not to become one of them ken!  we'd hate to lose you.  that would cause me to be "blown away" ;)



#14 Big Nake

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 07:07 AM

It's just like anything else... stay open-minded and never assume that you can't improve on what you're doing. I have mentioned before that I feel like I'm making my best beer right now and many of the batches I've made in 2016 have been really, really good. Like major-disappointment-when-the-keg-blows good. So I'm not necessarily looking for specific improvements but I'll always take that piece of information. Always. What I do with it remains to be seen but I'll always take it.

#15 Brauer

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 07:20 AM

I'm kind of a wuss when it comes to munich. I def like to cut it with some pils.

It's all a matter of preference, and these milder versions are popular, so that's probably the general preference.

#16 Brauer

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 07:27 AM

I had to ask about the pima, vima, muma. I probably should have guessed but I did not. Some of the things being done with the low-O2 process tends to have an impact on malt character. I don't pretend to know since I'm not really doing any low-O2 brewing but even the steps that I did take, plus the brewtan, I seem to be getting a deeper, richer malt profile. That led me to ask why he was mixing the base malts... too MUCH of something or too LITTLE. Surprisingly he said that pilsner-only was flat... and I consider the pilsner malt he's using (Weyermann Barke) to be very rich and full of flavor. It's just funny to me because when I went to make this American Premium, I cut the base malt with Rahr 2-row to deaden the malt depth a little bit (I realize he is using pale ale malt and I only used Rahr 2-row) and I liked my result. He's attempting to amp up his Barke with Pale Ale malt and based on some of the pale ale malt I have used, I could see it working. I just thought the whole concept was interesting because we might ordinarily use all pilsner plus some amount of Vienna and/or Munich and at only 5%, he's saying it didn't work. I would probably use more Vienna or Munich than just 5% if I were making a Helles, Pilsner or Czech Pils. More good information for those of us who think beer.

I guess I missed the point about trying to ADD to the Pils flavor. I wouldn't think try Pale Malt in a German style, but maybe it fills in for Chit Malt. I used to add Munich or Vienna, to Pilsner, but I find that a good Pilsner Malt and a good mash gets it done, mostly. I do still like a little Carafoam.

#17 Brauer

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 07:29 AM

He will say nothing is wrong. He is one of the leaders of the LODO movement and that paper ( PDF) that was put out several months back.

Oh, that...

It seems that his system has a number of problems.

#18 denny

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 08:57 AM

those abbreviations make me go :wacko:

 

Elitism...;)



#19 positiveContact

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 09:16 AM

Elitism... ;)

 

I already just call it pils which more obvious.  typing munich isn't that hard.



#20 denny

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Posted 28 October 2016 - 09:30 AM

I already just call it pils which more obvious.  typing munich isn't that hard.

 

Agreed.  It seems like the nicknames those guys have devised are intended to show that they're insiders who know more than we do.




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